How Not to Act on J-Date
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So based on the success of "What not to do if you don’t get the job," this week, we’re proud to bring you "How not to act on J-Date."
COMPLETE WITH AUDIO!!
This was emailed to me (don’t bother to ask by who, I promised secrecy) and it’s about three or so weeks old. And before you give me crap for posting it, trust me, it was forwarded about 22 times before it hit me, so it’s definitely out there. I’m not printing anything that doesn’t already exist.
Our story opens with some background: For the uninitiated, (those who don’t live in either New York, Florida, Los Angeles, or Israel,) J-Date is match.com for Jews. I’ve used it. I’ve had a few good dates from it, a few horrible dates from it, like most everyone has.
And when you have one of those horrible dates, you chalk it up. "Oh, it was just dinner," you say.
That’s life. There’ll be other dates. Right?
I mean, that’s what we all do, yes?
NOT DARREN SHERMAN. Darren just felt… Well, "wronged."
So let’s start here: Darren’s profile reads:
About me:
I joined JDate four weeks ago. Cute, tall and funny best describes me!
I am a person whom is usually on the go, particularly in the warm
weather. In the summertime you can typically find me on the beaches in the
Hampton’s or New Jersey shore. In the wintertime I enjoy taking drives
to beautiful towns such as Lambertsville, Red Bank, Katonah, Port
Jefferson and Greenwich. "People watching" can be an easily enjoyable
activity for me. I own a management consulting firm assisting financial
institutions with regulatory issues. I travel extensively for business and
pleasure.
I am looking for:
I am on JDate to find someone special. I have no set rules per se on
dating someone younger/older (20-40). I have learned that age really does
not matter; so why limit any possibilities in finding a life long
partner. Wouldn’t you agree? Physcial characteristics: Preferably tall and
medium build. Mentally: Fun and easy going. Someone who is comfortable
with themselves. I love a good jokester so please be funny!
Below is a little bit more about me from a professional perspective.
(Hey, JDating is serious business 
Biography of Darren L. Sherman:
Mr. Darren L. Sherman is CEO of <company deleted to give the guy at least somewhat of a chance of recovering from his stupidity at some point in his life from a business perspective, anyway,> a
consultation firm providing regulatory compliance and internal audit
assistance to..blah blah. Darren previously served as a Senior
Investigator for the <government agency deleted>..blah blah.
References are available upon request
I hope we get the chance to finally meet!
Darren
_____
So Darren asks Joanne out. Joanne accepts. They eat at China Grill. (Nice restaurant. I’ve been there.) Darren pays, despite Joanne offering to split the check.
At some point after the meal, Darren gets the idea that Joanne didn’t like him.
Rather than just chalk it up to a bad date (hey, it happens, right?) Darren… Well, Darren has other plans.
DARREN EMAILS JOANNE ASKING HER TO SEND HIM $50 FOR HER PORTION OF DINNER.
Yes. I paused and re-read that about 30 times, too.
I couldn’t be serious, could I? He actually didn’t email that, did he? Oh, but he did:
From: Darren Sherman
Date: Jun 19, 2006 8:48 PM
Subject: Date
To: xxxxx@xxxxxx.com
: <mailto:xxxxx@xxxxxx.com>
Cc:
Sorry things didn’t work out. I guess you changed your
mind.
Here is my address for the $50 bucks:
<DELETED> East <DELETED> Street, Apt. 504
NY NY 10028
Take care,
Darren
_______
OK. So Darren’s a bit odd. Fine. He emailed her, she didn’t respond, and he let it go. Right?
Come on. What kind of story would that be?
Darren CALLED HER AND LEFT A VOICE MAIL, THREATENING TO SEND HER A SUMMONS IF SHE DOESN’T PAY HER SHARE OF THE BILL!
(Insert Jerry Springer "OH NO HE DIDN’T" line here.)
But he did.
Listen here:
So Joanne goes to work, after hearing that email on her mobile phone voice mail the night before, and before she can even say the world "stalker," she gets the following email:
From: Darren Sherman
Date: Jun 20, 2006 8:13 AM
Subject: Darren
To: xxxxx@xxxxxx.com
: <mailto:xxxxx@xxxxxx.com>
Cc:
Joanne,
I wanted to follow up on my email and call to you last night to ensure you received my messages for the $50.
Please acknowledge by replying to this email that you will be sending me the $50.
I hope you understand from my point of view.
Thanks,
Darren
________
Um… OK. This is just getting weird. It ends here, right.
Heh. Yeah. Right.
Joanne sends the following email back to Darren:
Darren,
I just received your emails and also your message from last night. I was away and am just getting back this morning. I had every intention of calling you andmeeting to go out but your email has completely turned me off and i find it extremely tacky. I will not be sending you any money since i offered that night to pay and you told me no that you would take care of it.
Please do not call me or send me another email i would rather not hear from you at all. And for future reference in the dating world you may want to rethink the tacky approach about asking someone for money like that perhaps that is why you haven’t met anyone or have seen them again.
__________
Go Joanne!! Way to show a backbone! Nice!
This, of course, (as you could have guessed,) just sends Darren to the next level.
HE CUTS AND PASTES HIS AMEX BILL INTO AN EMAIL!!!
From: Darren Sherman
Date: Jun 20, 2006 10:22 AM
Subject: American Express Bill
To: xxxxx@xxxxxx.com
: <mailto:xxxxx@xxxxxx.com>
06/04/2006
CHINA GRILL NEW YORK NY
FOOD/BEVERAGE
FOOD-BEV 107.83
TIP 20.00
Reference No: 320061560288086573
More Detail
127.83
Do the right thing Joanne.
Thanks,
Darren
__________
Words fail me.
About four hours later, DarrenStalker (TM) strikes again, sending another voice mail, telling Joanne that she’s "hiding behind email," and now he’s going to "contact her employer."
There aren’t big enough letters on my keyboard to type "WTF?"
Listen here, and try not to snort soda out of your nose.
After receiving this barrage of communications, Joanne decides to fire off an email to Darren to end this once and for all:
From: xxxxx@xxxxxx.com
: <mailto:xxxxx@xxxxxx.com>
Date: Jun 20, 2006 2:38 PM
Subject:
To: Darren Sherman
Darren
I am truly sorry it didn’t work out. You seemed like a nice guy, but after your voice mails you have now entered the world of a first class creep. Dating is not business, I offered to go dutch at the time the bill came and you declined, as far as I am concerned that is the end of the story. I didn’t know that your paying the bill was contingent on me going out with you again.
Once again, I think you need to look internally as to why things are not working out for you in the dating world. You had mentioned that you had been burned several times, and I am sorry if you feel that it has happened to you again, but perhaps it is your approach in dealing with others that leads to this. Dating and relationships and business are completely different and there is not a quid pro quo for eating and drinking on a date. If this is how you think it works, perhaps you should get consult a professional who I could take care of all of your needs. If I remember correctly it was your choice to go out for dinner, I would have been just as happy to take a walk in the park to get to know you.
With that said, please feel free to call my employer or issue a summons if you think that this will help. Your message has said that you will not drop this, and I am not one to be bullied or threatened. I have saved all your messages and if you chose to go ahead with your threats then I will be more than happy to notify the proper authorities and get a restraining order. I will also let your clients and employees know about your erratic and bizarre behavior.
Joanne.
_________
I do love her backbone.
Does this phase Stalker-Darren? (Who should totally be a comic strip character and should fight the Green Lantern or something…)
No, it does not phase Stalker-Darren.
Darren calls her OFFICE, again threatening the summons, and offering up this pearl of Darren-Wisdom: "You ate the food, you drank the wine, Pay your bill."
Words fail me here, guys. And seriously - for a publicist? That’s rare.
Listen here:
And of course, much like the Ginsu Knives commercial, just wait. There’s MORE!
After another 28 minutes, Darren calls her cell phone AGAIN!! This time, (and I implore you - sit down for this one) he lets Joanne know that he’s CALLED CHINA GRILL TO REPORT A DISCREPENCY IN THE BILL!
Yes, you read that right. Darren has told Joanne that he called China Grill to speak to the General Manager to explain that he should not have been charged for the entire meal - i.e., He expects China Grill to call Joanne and get her half of the bill, and credit his AmEx.
People, I have no motive for lying. You can’t make this stuff up. Listen to the fourth voice mail here:
Finally, the fifth voice mail. From CHINA GRILL! They called, apparently as confused as we all are, asking Joanne what the heck was going on.
PR props to China Grill - When Joanne told them the story, they not only told her to not worry about the bill, but offered her a free drink the next time she stopped in. WELL DONE, China Grill’s GM. Someone got their PR training. Bravo.
At this point, kids, that’s where our story ends. Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of Darren Sherman - Perhaps he’s filing a "stop payment" on his Amex Bill… Or perhaps he’s given up J-Date all together.
One thing we do know, though - (and how many times have I said this?) It you put it out there, either on a voice mail, email, fax, or the Internet, it WILL come back to bite you in the ass.
You don’t believe me?
Just ask Darren Sherman.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:26 pm
This is seriously disturbing behavior, and i’m not joking. It’s time to RUN, not walk, in the other direction when this guy approaches. Very scary.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:26 pm
unnnnnn-beeeeeee-lievableeeeeeeeee. seriously, all you can do is laugh! thanks for posting that. i’m linking a few friends now. cheers
-hh
July 17th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
oh. my. god. I (almost) can’t believe it. But I heard the taped proof!
July 18th, 2006 at 10:45 am
quote: ” I have learned that age really does
not matter; so why limit any possibilities in finding a life long
partner. Wouldn’t you agree?”
This is coming from a person who is going to a jewish only dating service. Oh the irony.
July 18th, 2006 at 11:09 am
“I didn’t know that your paying the bill was contingent on me going out with you again.”
Ok, even though I think this guy is way out of line, maybe the ladies out there should really, really insist on paying half when you know you never want to see this guy again. Not because of weirdo’s like this guy, because maybe it is the right thing to do. An example of this is buying a drink for a girl at a bar. My friend did this, offered a lady a drink, she accepted, talking to him for about 30 seconds and promptly walked away with her drink. He walked up to her and said something along the lines of ‘how dare you?! You know as well as I do that that drink isn’t really a drink, it’s says I like you would you like to talk and get to know each other better. And accepting the drink is accepting this offer.’
And you know what he’s right. That is what the drink signifies.
So I guess the question is, what does the custom of the man paying for dinner (at least the first one, if not a few more) signify?
Hmm, maybe some sexist things here but the one thing that jumps out it symbolizes being a provider. It’s old school crap but that basically is what it is.
Now, we’ve all been on a few dates that didn’t go the greatest. And one/both parties decide that’s it. But one goes home and chalks it up to experience and the other does the same minus some cash. Now as the guy, if I feel I enjoyed the date and somehow I am misreading her and think there is potential for another date, of course I’m going to be ‘a gentleman’ and pay, to do otherwise would be dating suicide.
So if thats being a gentleman, maybe being ‘a lady’ is insisting to (and I mean insisting not just the one kindly offer, as that can impress a man and make him like you even more) go dutch when you know you never want to see this guy again.
July 18th, 2006 at 11:53 am
The thing is, though, that she did intend to contact him again about seeing each other after that. However, he jumped the gun: he couldn’t reach her immediately, so he flipped out on her. She saw that and immediately changed her mind, naturally.
I also don’t think him declining her offer to go dutch entitles him to any second date rights, not even in the same ballpark as buying someone a drink in a bar for the obvious purpose of chatting someone up. Besides, she hadn’t decided not to see him again at the point the bill was up for discussion.
I’d say the best policy on a date, especially a (mostly) blind one is for both parties to be happy to go dutch, then take it from there. If you’re going to insist on paying the whole bill (male or female) understand it doesn’t entitle you to so much as a “sorry, not interested” email after the fact.
(P.S. to the blog tech: I signed into TypeKey which removes the name/email/URL fields, but it gave me an error and has me fill ‘em in after I try to post. No biggie, just thought I’d mention it.)
July 18th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
Would you please forward Darren’s personal info to my email address? He sounds like my kind of guy.
Oy.
July 18th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
guest - call me old fashioned, but i believe if a man asks a woman out on a first date - regardless of how it goes - he should pay and not take money from her. it’s just tacky. he should take her to a place that’s within his budget, preparing himself for either situation (good or bad) and understand that it’s all a part of being “out there”. if you’re worried about money, go for coffee. not a coffee drinker? take a walk around the park and grab an iced tea. you should know that women talk, and if a man does accept cash from her on a first date, he’s immediately put on the dating black-list. just some insight from a gal who’s “out there”…
July 18th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
To the male commenter above, the key points to remember are that Darren got the idea AFTER the meal that Joanne wasn’t interested, and that Joanne in fact was interested in a second date.
When the check comes, a woman could offer to pay if she has already decided that she’s not interested in seeing the man further. But typical etiquette for dates is that whoever does the inviting is responsible for paying. Darren chose an expensive restaurant with the full knowledge that dating itself is a crap shoot.
And as for your drink-buying friend, that’s a crap shoot also. Ladies should be polite and kind in these situations, but drink-buying is not quid pro quo for 10 minutes of conversation. The drink does not “signify” anything, and accepting one is not a tacit agreement to get to know the buyer better to the buyer’s satisfaction.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:16 am
God I’m happy that I’m married.
July 19th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
Maybe my Yiddish is a bit off, but if this clown is asking her to be a mensch, perhaps he should look in the mirror and discover the shlameil he really is. On behalf of all the decent guys out there, Daren, please “Ech hob dir in drerd”
July 19th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
“The drink does not “signify” anything, ”
But yes it does. If not then what is this strange phenomenon of men buying total strangers drinks. Hi, I’m joe would like a drink? There ya go, thanks come again’. Everything in dating is rituals. Not as primative as they once were, but rituals none the less. I hate to repeat myself but c’mon, you know the man is offering the drink is really saying ‘You are attractive to me and I’m making an attempt to get to know you better, are you interested as well?’.
That’s what it means plain and simple.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:01 pm
This sounds like something I saw on People’s Court last week.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:12 pm
Blogorrhea NYC: The City of Bitterness and Desperation
Threatening someone via email, voicemail and summons has to be the most effective way to deal with an unsuccessful…
July 20th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
Money invariably ruins my relationships with women — except, of course, where it makes them possible at all.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Unreal. I am soooo glad that I don’t have to date anymore. If I found myself single once again, I think I’d stay that way.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
Well, as a Jewish person this certainly doesn’t do a lot to dispell stereotypes does it. What a fucking loser. Thank god I’m a dyke. We have losers but they are a little less scary.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
That guy is really is sick….is it that serious?
July 20th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
The same thing happened to me with a guy I met on JDate, but he asked for $20.00. I told him to wait by the mailbox, bet he is still there!
July 20th, 2006 at 5:15 pm
guest, why not try talking to the person FIRST and then if they seem interested offer to buy them a drink. Wouldn’t that make more sense?
Also, I had an older male co-worker who gave me this pearl of wisdom: If a man offers to buy you a drink he is very well aware of the fact that you could say yes and simply walk away. Only men who like to gamble should ever offer a woman a drink. So Take the Drink and walk away already!
July 20th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
This guy is a complete NARCISSIST and/or MYSOGYNIST!
He probably expects to get laid if he gives a girl a backrub.
Don’t give things and expect things in return, Darren. When you don’t get those things, going all psycho is NOT ok. Grow UP!
July 20th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
whoa…
oh, and to the guys who believe that buying a drink for someone entitles you to a conversation, uhm…. not so much.
When you choose to buy a drink, you’re taking a risk just as if you’d decided to walk up and talk to the person (who has every right to walk off then too). Instead of trying to strike up a conversation, YOU chose the drink probably because YOU were more comfortable with using that method as your excuse to talk to her.
Maybe your friend creeped her out after she accepted? Maybe she was drunk? Maybe she had a boyfriend? Who knows, and who cares? It’s all irrelevant; the target of your affection is not obligated to stick around for any length of time or even speak to you beyond saying “Thank you.”
Seriously, suck it up. If losing the $8 to $12 is going to bother you that much, then just try saying “Hi. Are you here with anyone?”
July 20th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
Um…I think what I find slightly more disturbing than Darren’s actions are the responses by men who think this whole scenario should be acceptable. No woman should have to “INSIST” on paying half the bill more than once. If you don’t jump and say, hey that’s a great idea, the first time she offers, you’re an idiot, cut your losses and move on. The same rules apply when you offer to buy a woman a drink at a bar. You are entitled to NOTHING. If you don’t want to lose, DON’T OFFER!! Now, don’t get me wrong, IF I were single and someone offered to buy me a drink I would feel grateful and definitely chat with whoever bought it for me for probably the duration of the drink. It’s the polite thing to do. BUT if you say something in the first few minutes that completely offends me, threatens me, creeps me out, turns me off, or makes me uncomfortable I am G-O-N-E gone. Do any of you play Texas Hold ‘em? If you bet the first couple of times and then decide you have nothing after seeing the 4th card, you don’t get your chips back because you have shit in your hand. Kick yourself in the ass and GET OVER IT!
July 20th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
As a former jdater, I’ve been that girl! I’ve gone on PLENTY of first dates and let the suitor pay for my portion. However, the difference with me and her is I never offer to go dutch.
Now, I’m sure you’re thinking “bitch, such a JAP.” Cut me some slack, they asked me on the date ie; dinner, dessert, drinks
If it was up to me, our first date would be in Central park. No food, or bill required- just get-to-know you without too much pressure…
Yes, his tactics and “follow-up” are atrocious and completely childish. However, I’m surprised I’ve never received this sort of treatment—makes me think twice about first dates and my etiquette after .
Bottom line, you have to feel sorry for the guy. He probably has no clue what a psycho he is being and wonders why he can’t keep a girl around!!!
July 20th, 2006 at 6:50 pm
Actually “guest” my acceptance of the drink is payment for all the fantasy role play you were doing with me in your head. Get over yourself. Sometimes it’s payment for the g-d damn interruption. I’m not interested in you, I’m out with my friends and you’re bothering me.
July 20th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
“…a drink isn’t really a drink, it says I like you, would you like to talk and get to know each other better. And accepting the drink is accepting this offer. That is what the drink signifies.”
Guest, how long would have been acceptable before walking away? A minute, five minutes? If the drink buyer comes across immediately as a creep, do I have to stand there with my drink for ten minutes because I “accepted his offer to get to know him better”? No, I do not.
I agree with comments from David and Are you kidding me? Get to know the girl for awhile before offering to buy her a drink. “Can I buy you a drink” should not be your opening line. Better yet, guest, stay out of the bar scene.
July 20th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
For god’s sake, buying a drink for someone is an attention-getting device, not a sophisticated form of renting them. Once you’ve got their attention, they can make their decision from there. It guarantees nothing other than that they will pay attention to you momentarily.
As for the suggestion that all women offer to go dutch when they never want to see the guy again: some of us are just generous sorts. I always offer to go Dutch if I can afford it, because it’s a nice thing to do. What if the guy thought I’d put him in the trash bin and was offering to split the bill because I thought he was a cane toad? Besides, even Miss Manners says that the person who asks, pays, regardless of gender.
July 20th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
Oh sure, he gets to pay with his AmEx and earn the MR points; she has to pay with cash sans rewards?!?! Nice try!
Phew, so glad my luck on JDate has been better.
Great post.
July 21st, 2006 at 1:29 am
Congrats PR guy! You’ve posted an embellished urban legend that’s been going round the internet since 2004. Maybe you and the pro-lifer guy who wrote about that Onion piece can be pen pals.
July 21st, 2006 at 1:41 am
tradition says man pays for woman. this comes i think from the primal instinct that the man should be able to provide food for the woman before she engages with him sexually. her depency on him for bringing her food whilst pregnant is enormous of course. doesn’t matter whether she has a high paying job or works for minimum wage. at some point she will physically be unable to provide food for herself and her unborn child. unfortunately, this clashes with the instinct of man, having to impregnate as many women as possible, in order for the race to survive.
feminism has kind off destroyed the rationale behind conventional rules, that is, in the hetero world.
how do gay people do this i wonder? with reason?
i agree with most of what you say, except for guest of course.
i mean geez, you can’t even date anymore, take a slight chance, or someone calls your work etc.? the guy is completely irrational and super scary, he has no idea of reality whatsoever. i feel a bit sorry for the woman, i would hate to have to deal with this. what a waste of time.
in the end this story is an extreme situation. i guess it was at her risk as well, for putting herself out there in order to find a man. usually when you force it the last thing you get is the desired effect. but then, you can’t win if you don’t take a risk.
July 21st, 2006 at 2:16 am
pretty strange story, but as they say “Life immitates cheap TV shows!”
July 21st, 2006 at 2:17 am
While I do not side with supercreep, I’ve had many female friends + acquaintances who bragged about how they tricked guys into buying them drinks then ignored them. Sorry to whomever said otherwise above, but it’s a known ritual that accepting a drink is supposed to mean: Okay, I’ll put up with you for a few minutes. If you’re nice, I’ll stay. If not, I’ll walk away.
But taking the drink and walking away makes a woman give other women a bad name. And provokes kooks.
Don’t want to talk to the guy, then don’t take the drink. Not sure? Take the drink, converse, then say you have to go see a friend - or whatever.
Like the guy after a few minutes? Hey, buy him a drink, if you can.
July 21st, 2006 at 3:50 am
Okay, this is why I’m single. And maybe a guy shouldn’t take a FIRST date to an expensive restaurant, especially when they’ve never met! This guy gives men a bad name. Maybe he should pay her back for wasting her time on his clearly boring date.
July 21st, 2006 at 9:44 am
Did Joanne contact J-Date to let them know about this? If not, she should and soon. They should kick this loser Sherman off of J-Date for good.
July 21st, 2006 at 11:14 am
I don’t think this is an urban legend — Darren Sherman is real, and the information posted here about him in his resume checks out. Also, the audio clips? I’m pretty sure this guy is for real — and that he’s really never going to date again after this.
July 21st, 2006 at 11:16 am
Ah… this thing is endlessly hilarious! Peter, it sounds like this guy needs a publicist of his own. His interview with Lloyd Grove definitely didn’t do him much good.
July 21st, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Help support Joanne’s legal fund and get one of these great shirts.. You ate the food, You drank the wine - Do the right thing. Be a mensch
http://www.cafepress.com/darrenator
July 21st, 2006 at 12:20 pm
Brings back nostalgic memories of when I lived in Florida…too funny!
July 21st, 2006 at 12:25 pm
All of this talk about the etiquette of accepting drinks/dinner is beside the point.
The point is that this Darren character felt that it was his privilege (or, it seems, his RIGHT) to threaten and harass this woman.
This man repeatedly invaded her space.
Everything else is moot.
She should file whatever charges she can against him.
July 21st, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Can somebody /please/ make sure this is worked into a Law & Order: SVU plot at some point? Incredible…
July 21st, 2006 at 3:13 pm
I would just like to point out that what you are all doing on this board is libel, and if you’re talking about me behind my back in a public manner, it’s slander. So, if you don’t mind, I’d like you all to do the right thing and submit me a personal apology as well as a correction to any/everyone who you mentioned this occurrence to. I think we can all agree it would be the right thing… You read the story, you wrote the comments, now repent your sins.
July 21st, 2006 at 4:32 pm
I could not imagine suggesting a woman go dutch with me, nevermind asking to be REPAID by her. Absolutely hysterical. Guys, you go on a date, you pay. Wanna go dutch, go out with a friend.
July 21st, 2006 at 5:04 pm
“You know as well as I do that that drink isn’t really a drink, it’s says I like you would you like to talk and get to know each other better.”
I have often declined drinks from men who are at the bar (club, restaurant) with their wives or girlfriends. (And the fact that they are there with someone is no secret) How do we explain this phenomenon? Wait, I take that back, I did accept a drink from a married man once after having a long (political) discussion with him and his wife. Although our opinions differed greatly, I saw the gesture of offering me a drink showed that there were no hard feelings. At the point when the drink was offered, I was already talking to a different group of people and his wife wasn’t around. I took the drink but continued talking to this new group. And someone reprimanded me saying, “I think he meant he wanted to talk to you.”
Did I commit some faux pas? Or was I right to interpret this gesture as I did?
July 21st, 2006 at 5:12 pm
Sorry to the gal this happened to. this guy is serioulsy disturbed. Please file a restraining order now ! I have dated gal’s that we never seemed to click and NEVER would I ever consider this type behavior.
July 21st, 2006 at 5:48 pm
This is the funniest thing I have ever seen. What a putz! What the fuck were you thinking Darren? You will never get laid again. Even hookers will avoid you. Strip clubs will have you on the “keep out” board. Your own dog won’t even hump your leg anymore because you asked him to chip in for the dog food. Good luck to you in that move to Fargo since your personal life is now destroyed just about everywhere else. Way to fuck yourself in the internet age!
July 21st, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Maybe I’m old-fashioned, but even buying a drink for a lady doesn’t mandate _anything_ . It is an invitation to chat for the duration of the drink; but if the lady feels like it, she’s free to walk away. Stop treating a woman like a piece of property, and maybe you will meet someone you like.
You cheapskates give the rest of us single men a bad name.
July 21st, 2006 at 6:45 pm
What a moron and regarding guest’s comment about this behavior being on the same level as a woman accepting a drink and walking away I have only one comment - if you can’t afford the drink or the dinner, don’t offer to buy ..or go somewhere cheaper -as KS suggested.
I’ve been dating longer than I had anticipated I would have in this lifetime but alwayst try to be a gentelman. I’m always the first to open a door, stand-up for a lady or buy a drink if it seems appropriate / not creepy and sometimes just because. I do this not because I expect something in return be it a date, conversation or anything else. All that is expected in return is a thank you or a kind gesture from across the bar. Funny thing is, it has been good even though I don’t expect it as I’ve gotten several dates, but usually from a woman sitting next to me or a friend or down the road from another woman who appreciates a man who is just NOT A CREEP like this guy.
Oh well, good look to all of ya’ll
out there in dating land. It sad but funny to see jokers like this guy out there.
July 21st, 2006 at 6:50 pm
You should cue in the theme to “Twilight Zone” whenever starting this…
July 21st, 2006 at 7:17 pm
“Should I bring all of my shoes too?”
(for the Jerky Boys fans out there)
July 21st, 2006 at 7:25 pm
wow. just wow.
when i take chicks out, i always pay and i dont ask them for money.
well i have once, that was only because i had a budget of 200$ on the date, and the chick ended up living over 80 miles away.
/and i only asked her for 10$ just to make sure i had enough gas to get home
//drives a 94 integra LS
///built engine
////uns 13.2 on a 50shot of NOS
July 21st, 2006 at 7:47 pm
What an utterly creepy story, yet oddly hilarious (in a sad way) at the same time. Of course, I say that only because it isn’t happening to ME. The comments section is quite entertaining as well. I will be linking this to a forum I moderate - our own comment section ought be a hoot, being as the percentage of male members to female runs around 1,000 to 1.
Addressing a few of the comments I’ve read, in my 40+ years I have found that if you ask men what they believe, having a woman accept a drink that you’ve bought for her does lead them to think - however wrongly - that it entitles them to something…a few words, and an opening for conversation. Not since the early eighties, have I known any man who assumes buying a woman a drink, entitles him to more than that. (I’m female, in case anyone was wondering ;D)
I have a couple casual female acquaintances who think it’s a hoot to get men to buy them drinks in bars, then they lead those men on to keep getting free drinks. The whole sorry thing always ends with them ditching the guys by sneaking out a side door, and going off to a different bar. Notice I said “acquaintances.” I could never be friends with anyone who thought such a shoddy way of behaving, was acceptible or even funny. I would also not be friends with any man who thought that if a date went badly, it was okay to punish his partner by in effect, charging her for his time. Does that mean if it had went well, he could lay out more money and purchase sexual favors? Darren sounds like a real piece of work…or a guy used to paying professionals for “dates.”
When I’ve been offered drinks by strangers, I refuse. Always. Unless I already know you, and you are just picking up this round, you’ll get a thanks but no thanks and a smile. I make my own money, and buy my own drinks. On dates, I always pull my money out when the bill comes, regardless of who invited whom. If my date gets insulted, that’s his problem. We can discuss it, of course. “You can get the next one” works in a pinch, if he seems too upset.
I’ve actually found that turning down a drink, and then taking the time to explain why, has led to some highly entertaining conversations and even dates in some cases. Engaging a person in conversation without any money being involved, always works best.
That isn’t “women’s Lib,” it’s common sense. If you can pay your way, do so. It’s your responsibility as an adult. Men are not obligated to pay for what a woman wants.
My personal bottom line, is that I refuse to feel obligated - even in a truly minor way - to someone I do not know well. Even if the “obligation” is tenuous at best. I’m quite sure many people will disagree with me, but that is exactly what’s so great about being human - we get to decide upon our own personal codes of behavior, that others are not obligated to follow along with. What works for me, may not work for you.
July 21st, 2006 at 7:49 pm
This guy worked for the SEC and is in a prominent position in the regulatory business on Wall Street. God help us!
July 21st, 2006 at 7:55 pm
this guy is hilarious. is it my imagination or does he does he sound alot like saul rosenburg, one of the sketches from the jerkey boys?
and as far as having her pay back her portion, i do believe if a man like myself pays all, than that means the bill is settled, even if you never see that woman again? comeon, it’s 50 friggen dollars?! i mean, how many thousands of dollars have i spent dating, and i never once asked to be payed back or reembursed.
July 21st, 2006 at 8:23 pm
The article is a riot. I imagine this guy’s friends and coworkers have all recognized him or soon will. I bet this is going to do wonders for his dating frequency.
July 21st, 2006 at 8:24 pm
Whoever extends the invitation should pay. That’s the way dating works. It’s also the way other sorts of social meal invitations work. End of story.
This guy is an asshat, but I don’t think he’s dangerous. I do, unfortunately, know some Jews who are exactly like this, if perhaps not quite so creepy about it. I also know some Jews who are normal.
July 21st, 2006 at 8:26 pm
Jerkius,
I agree with you. Buying someone a drink doesn’t entitle the guy anything. It’s only an opening line itself.
However, those types of women that like to lead guys on to buy them drinks all night are exactly why I don’t date. I have no trust in people, especially in bars.
July 21st, 2006 at 9:11 pm
What was creepiest to me was his very calm and businesslike voice, coupled to the repetetive and redundant nature of his words. Just … creepy.
Almost as if, on one hand, he still expected her to be seduced by the lulling tones and fall in obediant love with him.
When the message and the tone are so opposed - I start to think psychopath.
July 21st, 2006 at 9:16 pm
A first date with somebody is a way to get to know them better and learn something about their character and personality. Looks like that worked really well for Joanne - now she knows everything she’d want to about this loser, and so do hundreds of other women…
Letting a guy buy you a drink and then walking away is rude - though sometimes the guy deserves it. But unless you’re playing some hard-to-get game and hoping he’ll follow you, at least chug the drink before leaving instead of walking off with it.
July 21st, 2006 at 10:15 pm
Its jewish people like this, that give jewish people like me a bad name. This guy needs to be kicked hard in the matzo balls.
July 21st, 2006 at 11:55 pm
Just disgusting!!!! James Vergon, you are right! It is slime like this that gives Jews a bad rap! There is NOTHING more disgusting than a cheap person, and–unfortunately–Jews have this reputation. No wonder when you hear stories like this!!!!!
To Darren: You cheap, disgusting bastard! You sicken me!
July 21st, 2006 at 11:59 pm
Man, this is something George Costanza would do. Only somehow both funnier and scarier at the same time.
July 22nd, 2006 at 12:05 am
Did the guy sound like woody allen to anyone else?
July 22nd, 2006 at 2:01 am
Snopes has been reporting this as an urban legend for years.
SNOPES IS WRONG.
As Mr. PRDifferently himself emailed me, Lowdown, the gossip column, contacted China Grill and confirmed this story. It is true.
That Snopes has had similar stories (with the name Darren) for years just seems to indicate this wasn’t a one-time thing.
I feel sorry for all the OTHER Darrens who are going to have to start using their middle names or sumpin’.
July 22nd, 2006 at 5:26 am
Slight correction: Snopes didn’t say it was wrong. Snopes only listed it as something going around and unconfirmed. Ah, in that case it’s corroboration!
July 22nd, 2006 at 6:38 am
How much did the China Grill pay you for this piece of marketing genious? And how do I find a gig such as that? Either way, I must say it was fairly well done. And I bet it has been reservation only for the past few days.
July 22nd, 2006 at 8:47 am
Darren or someone who professes to be Darren Wrote:
I would just like to point out that what you are all doing on this board is libel, and if you’re talking about me behind my back in a public manner, it’s slander. So, if you don’t mind, I’d like you all to do the right thing and submit me a personal apology as well as a correction to any/everyone who you mentioned this occurrence to. I think we can all agree it would be the right thing… You read the story, you wrote the comments, now repent your sins.
Please note that it’s only libel (written defamation of character) if it’s not true. I guess you’re out of luck.
July 22nd, 2006 at 9:08 am
What a tool.
It also disturbs me to see so many comments here that seem to support Darren’s behavior. If you pay for something without a signed contract of some sort specifying that someone else owes you, say, half of that amount, then you simply GAVE it to them. You GIFTED her dinner, Darren. How can it be any more complex than that?
I also saw this nugget “Letting a guy buy you a drink and then walking away is rude - though sometimes the guy deserves it…”. It has NOTHING to do with the guy and whether he deserves it. He GAVE you a drink, you still retain the right to go anywhere you wish after he hands it to you. It would be “rude” not to at least say “Thanks”. After that, do what the hell you like…I GAVE you a drink.
It’s so painful to read these idiotic takes on the situation. You guys who see ANY grain of “right” in Darren’s behavior are alone for a reason. You DO NOT GET IT. Life, that is.
July 22nd, 2006 at 9:33 am
This guy sounds arrogant. And to make sure this blog is picked up every time someone searches him on Google:
Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman Darren Sherman
July 22nd, 2006 at 12:42 pm
Wow that guy is completely out of line. This isn’t right in any conceivable way.
I do, however, sort of agree with the drink thing. It’s not that the woman is obligated to stay and talk to a guy, but the acceptance of drink offer is sort of an aquiesence of interest. If the woman isn’t interested in speaking with the guy, she shouldn’t accept the drink offer.
Nevertheless, it’s pretty lame to just walk up and offer to buy a woman a drink without speaking to her. The guy should establish whether or not she’s interested first.
July 22nd, 2006 at 2:05 pm
To the guy who made comments about girls getting drinks at the bar.
I go out on a regular basis. Most of the time WITH my boyfriend. Usually when a guy buys me a drink he doesn’t even ask me if I want it. He buys it from the bartender. NORMALLY if a guy buys an alcoholic beverage (at a bar) without speaking to you first, his intentions are less than savory. So, I figure if he wants to buy me a drink without even talking to me first, then it’s his problem when he finds out that I have a boyfriend. I DO stay to talk for a bit and actually get to know the person though. UNLESS he gets creepy or pushy. When that happens I walk away. If I was the girl your friend confronted, I probably would have grabbed a bouncer. Maybe she wasn’t right for walking off after 30 seconds, but he needs to learn from that next time.
What this all boils down to for me, is that men screw women over EVERY day. So if a girl finds a way for a few free drinks…well, God forbid.
July 22nd, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Um … wow … yeah … I have nothing else … just … wow!!
July 22nd, 2006 at 6:07 pm
Cashanova
Ils se sont contactés sur un site de rencontres, il linvite à dîner, à la fin elle propose de payer sa part, il refuse, ils ne se revoient pas tout de suite, mais elle r…
July 22nd, 2006 at 8:16 pm
Wow, lucky for Joanne that she was outta town so she’d find out how sick Darren was before she got to “know him better”. What a stupid creep this guy is. I agree with you Peter Shankman, this is unbelievable.
July 22nd, 2006 at 8:40 pm
…a drink isn’t really a drink, it says I like you, would you like to talk and get to know each other better. And accepting the drink is accepting this offer. That is what the drink signifies.”
Actually it is not. Accepting the drink is accepting the drink, everything else is false values that signify that you have to buy women’s time, which in itself is extremely pathetic.
July 22nd, 2006 at 10:39 pm
I know this man. He is a good man. He is frined to the hole Buttershine famibly. He s a good man with woman and. He is not foolish, and is vvery smart in bed. I am ashamde of this woman and. Arent you ashamde of yourslefs?
July 23rd, 2006 at 12:20 am
links for 2006-07-23
Playstation Magazine #1 - September 1997 (tags: VideoGames magazines retro Sony nostalgia PDF) Sega Visions Magazine - Summer 1991 (tags: VideoGames magazines retro Sega nostalgia PDF) How Not to Act on J-Date with e-mails and voicemails as proof of…
July 23rd, 2006 at 12:34 am
A Contract - Offer and Acceptance.
A contract is formed when a clear offer is communicated and accepted and when that offer and acceptance is understood with equity between the parties to the agreement thus forming a contract. “I will go out with you again if you buy me drinks and dinner” would have been a contract. “Thank you for the drinks and dinner. I’ll call you” is however a promise, not a contract, thus being unenforceable. So there we have a contract and a promise, two separate and distinct things. Now we examine the right of recovery versus the implication of stalking. A man paying for a woman on a first date, whether “sexist” or not is such a normal occurrence as to be deemed by a reasonable person as such a traditional display of courtship as to imply no further right of recovery should such a courtship fail. Given the refusal in the first instance to go Dutch it is indeed a spent opportunity. It is a well known tenet of law that an individual cannot make decisions based on information contained soely within the head of another person. The gentleman may have surmised what he wished about the possibility of other dates but did not communicate that the the lady. In any contract you cannot accept by mere silence, silence is never acceptance. You cannot scrawl a note to say if you do nothing then we have a contract. Therefore there is no right of recovery. The lady did make it expressly clear in her written communications that she no longer wished to be contacted. The gentleman continued. He then further made mention that he would involve others and indeed created a false belief with the restaurant with saw them vicariously pursue her on the gentlemans behalf. This behaviour falls within the bounds of what a reasonable person calls stalking, that is to harrass or intimidate a person directly or indirectly and to continue to comminucate without just cause after such a person has made it abundantly clear that to do so is unwelcome. That’s all legalese. My opinion is much simpler - the guy is obviously a needy cockhead with poor interpersonal skills and behavioural patterns at least two standard deviations from the norm who should either appear in court or be beaten in an alley with dead cats.
July 23rd, 2006 at 1:29 am
Creeps like Darren Sherman sure “help” the decent guys in the world. Must be another one who thinks he’s God’s gift to women.
July 23rd, 2006 at 2:12 am
hey i just helped a girl move house on a second date and as i was picking up the truck at 5am it ended up on my credit card. After a long saturday of lugging furniture and a friendly goodbye see u round, i havent heard anything back from her a week later.
would it be churlish in this situation to ask for the money back?
July 23rd, 2006 at 2:38 am
I don’t see how the guy is being a stalker. Stalkers don’t typically send requests for money. The woman repeatedly resorts to personal insults. I’m sure her dating life is great; someone else must have put her profile on jdate.
July 23rd, 2006 at 5:13 am
ooookaayy. This one goes into the “weird and creepy as all heck column”. Two ways this is remotely relevant to me are 1.) I am a proud Catholic with plenty of Jewish (and other non-Catholic) friends who has never seen anyone-or at least any guy-act like this. The others are right in that this reienforces the Jews-are-cheap stereotype (which my friends are MOST CERTAINATLY NOT) and 2.) on the 3 “formal/official” dates I have been with my girlfriend I paid. No questions asked. However she finally got a chance to pay herself after vocally insisting on paying after the 1st date. We were driving back down to college in May and stopped at a diner. She proceeded to remove my cash from my wallet prompting a startled “holy shit where’s my money” reaction from yours truly. After which she paid (using HER money mind you) and then gave me back my money. Too funny. Except in a weird romantic way. Not like this prick. Lemme tell you, if Joanne was my sister, I’d have a chat with this prick….and then fix him a nice knuckle sandwich if he refused to see reason.
July 23rd, 2006 at 5:51 am
Eww…What a horrible stereotype to attach to a “J-Date”.
July 23rd, 2006 at 8:47 am
It seems to me that Darren very clearly thought they had an agreement about him paying only on the condition of them meeting again, and she disputes that agreement. If there was such a verbal agreement, it is legally enforceable, she is in breach of it (by not delivering) and he is within his rights to contact her (though not repeatedly like that or through her office) and sue her. Practically such a case would be hopeless as “she said, he said”, if there is no additional support to the asserted contract. The only way Darren could shift the burden of proof to her would be to do a chargeback on the credit card and get the restaurant to sue them as joint defendants based on his refusal to accept sole responsibility for the debt (the restaurant bill), but this would be a PR suicide for the restaurant, so it’s not going to happen either.
We don’t really know what went on the date and if there really was anything resembling an agreement, because we have the selection of “evidence” only from one party to the dispute. Also, if she offered to pay half as she writes, it doesn’t preclude there being a later agreement (for example immediately after) about him paying and them meeting again.
The legal points to the argument don’t change the fact that the guy is an asshole and an idiot by making a big issue about something so trivial and causing him immense loss of reputation over this. Personally I agree with the interpretation of etiquette that that who invites (regardless of gender) is primarily responsible for paying and that it’s definitely bad manners to impose or even suggest conditions to this payment. I would never extend an offer like that (”I pay if we meet again”). To me as a man it seems highly offensive to a reasonable woman.
However, this dispute and the comments clearly illustrate the problems of communication between previously unknown people in a dating situation where there is a “high performance requirement for the throughput” of this communication (that is to say both want to get their message accross with perfect clarity and also to understand what the other person is trying to convey). This is a difficult problem not only because of different pre-existing interpretations of customs and meanings, but also innuendo, non-verbal gestures etc.
That’s why it’s impractical to expect the kind of certainty and clarity as found in business negotiations, when you are trying to impress someone and avoid being too blunt and formal.
What these people should feel lucky about is that they are quibbling over $50 and not alledged “date rape”, where the disagreement is over “She said she wanted” and “I only invited him for a nightcap”…
July 23rd, 2006 at 10:47 am
Snopes has been updated to reflect that while this was an urban legend that started back in 2004, the particular story is confirmed.
http://www.snopes.com/love/revenge/paydate.asp
July 23rd, 2006 at 12:25 pm
To the benighted person who claims to have helped someone move on a second date: what were you thinking? Not that her behavior wasn’t unprincipled, but don’t you have the common sense to realize that no one with principles would ask someone they’d just met to help them move and use their credit card to rent the truck? This has nothing to do with ordinary dating behavior, this has to do with allowing yourself to be conned. I’m sorry, you’re probably a very nice, generous person (if you’re not in fact making this up), but please use this as an opportunity to realize that when people make requests of you that aren’t reasonable, you need to learn how to say, “No.” Go ahead and try to dun her for the money, because moving expenses have nothing to do with a date, and never should have. But I doubt you’ll see the money, because I doubt she ever intended to pay you back. There are some very dishonest people in the world, both male and female, and it seems you’ve probably been taken by one of them. I hope the lesson didn’t cost more than you can afford to pay for it.
July 23rd, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Is this guy for real - surely this must be a joke because I have never in my life heard of anyone being such a jerk (and that’s only part of the word)! Where does Darren get off with this? I think everyone that reads this story should send this link to everyone in their address books to make sure no one ever goes out with this creep again! I’ve heard it all now - and believe me I’ve heard a lot in 60 years but this truly takes the cake!
July 23rd, 2006 at 2:25 pm
In a world where women worked hard for equality and fairness, the same ideals should extend into the dating world as well. With that said, whoever is the one that does the asking is the one that should do the paying. Darren equated the date to a business arrangement. So, with that line of thinking, would he ask his clients to a business luncheon, then ask them to pay for it if it didn’t turn out fruitful for him? I highly doubt it. I am of course assuming that on JDate, he is the one that did that asking. The way he went about things was insane in my opinion. If he felt he had been slighted, then he should have waited to speak with her before interpreting her motivations. If she clearly indicated to him that she had used him then, I could understand his wanted to recoup his losses so to speak. With her offer to pay for her half of the dinner, and with his declining it, then he is the one at fault. If he had stated to her clearly that he will pay the entire bill contingent on another date, then it would have been her in a “breach of contract” so to speak. He did not clearly define his motivations, so therefore he should just chock it up to “bad business” if that’s the way he needs to look at things, and learn from it.
July 23rd, 2006 at 2:30 pm
Darren is one of many cookaboos out in this world.Let’s just hope that for every Darren there is a few great normal men out there looking for a lady.
July 23rd, 2006 at 6:54 pm
COS TAN ZA.
July 24th, 2006 at 12:21 am
It’s for real. My wife worked with him at the SEC. He was fired for leaving pornographic material on a co-worker’s desk, my wife was one of the people that had to testify against him. He’s an arrogant, self centered jackass. The only reason I found out was because I was playing the .wav files and wifey walked in and said, “Holy Shit! That sounds like Darren” So I showed her the page, and she unloaded about him.
Very pathetic guy from what she remembers.
July 24th, 2006 at 12:38 am
I have been on internet dates and I have gone dutch. I do have to say when the guy lets me pay he is off my roster. The thing is, I have watched men focus on my drink the whole damn night. Why are you sipping it they say? Want another? What do you think they want? Obviously sex and so do I. Do they have to be dogs about it and zone in on your drink? Maybe us girls should bring a breathalizer and you can know when to make your move. They should pay, fuck em. They already turned me into a whore mine as well finish by paying and they ruined the chance of getting the action, if there is attraction, we both were looking for. Woman aren’t all “ladies” looking for a rich jewish boy to marry, they have needs too. I got off JDate and as a half jew, I gotta say Jdate men gives jews a bad name. I have never had a bad experience with anyone else except one, and it didn’t involve money and it was not on JDate. So what $50.00? Thats for the powder room boys we woman will pay you to watch Breakfast at Tiffany’s first, how about that? You jewish boys lost your manners and trust me, most of you are too neurotic to hang out with and enjoy the date. You mine as well just pay us for our time as you show off your money cause it’s boring! Lets also remember the time we spend trying to doll up for your shallow asses. Bring on the Irish, Italians, Spanish. Lovers and manners!
July 24th, 2006 at 2:21 am
this isnt an urban legend. there is an urban legend that is very similar to it though. ill post the link to it. http://www.snopes.com/love/revenge/paydate.asp
July 24th, 2006 at 2:23 am
What does this post have to do with pr?
July 24th, 2006 at 3:03 am
Darren Sherman - creepy. Guys who think even one iota of Darren’s behavior is justifiable - creepy. People who say things like, “I do, unfortunately, know some Jews who are exactly like this,” - also creepy.
This whole thread, start to finish, makes me sad for the world.
July 24th, 2006 at 3:31 am
don’t ask a girl out if you don’t have any money. its called dating- you ask me out you buy me dinner. enough said…. she doesn’t owe you shit.
July 24th, 2006 at 7:28 am
What if you don’t run up exactly 50% of the bill? Is going Dutch really fair? When I date I always have a small calculator with me (and not one of the those solar powered one because I found that the light is often insufficient). I write down each item (actually, I put it in my PDA/phone) and add-up individual totals. If we share a drink (like a bottle of wine) then we estimate each person’s consumption. This system also allows us to differentially tip as I have found most women I date think that 10% is too low, but I believe that it is correct for fair service. I also have a simple system for rating service that includes both quantitative measures (# of attention visits, time spent at table, frequency of walk-pasts, accuracy, etc. a stop watch with lap-time functionality is useful) and qualitative measures (appearance, friendliness, humor, etc). I won’t go into all the details here, but most factors can be rated from 1 to 5 and then I have an algebraic formula to calculate the actual tip. I am currently not with a life/breeding partner and would be interested in meeting like-minded girls (Alan Van der Elk-roydson - adver67@gmail.com)
July 24th, 2006 at 9:07 am
Glad I am married. And Susan is right: the lesbians I know are quite a bit more mentally stable than Darren is. Loser thy name is Darren!
July 24th, 2006 at 10:21 am
Wuss behaviour at it’s finest. Wow. She WANTED to talk to him after her trip, and he blew it with impatience. Men, be men, not need whiners. Just wait a while. Take a lesson from Pink, who spells it out super clearly:
“Go away, give me a chance to miss you. Say goodbye it will make me want to kiss you…”
July 24th, 2006 at 11:15 am
The Daily News confirmed that Sherman was suspended from J-Date.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new.....7962c.html
I keep thinking back to my first day of law school when my Contracts professor offered up a number of hypotheticals (one being a man suing a woman because she refused a second date), and asked which ones were contracts and which weren’t. Most of us were adamant that the date scenario couldn’t be a contract, but we couldn’t say why.
No court would ever find in his favor, plain and simple. No one reasonably believes themselves to be entering a binding contract when promising “I’ll call you.” What’s more, if Darren never made the terms clear to Joanne (”I will pay for this dinner on the condition that you pay for the next one.”), there can be no mutal agreement and therefore, no contract. The “contract” could also fail for not setting the terms of repayment. Finally, no court would ever set the precedent that every man or woman could sue everytime they had a bad date. Please.
I say let the man sue her and let him get fined by the court for filing a frivolous lawsuit.
July 24th, 2006 at 11:16 am
“When a man invites a woman to dinner, he is trying to have a good time. He is intertaining himself, both with a meal, and with company he hopes he will like. Whether or not he intends to score is just a matter of degree: The fact is, he wants to be entertained. (Or, of course, develop a lasting relationship.) He is taking a gamble (as of course is the woman — she is gambling her time, and her peace of mind.) It’s an arm’s length thing.
For that man to feel that the woman owes him ANYTHING (other than common courtesy one would expect of any person in any social situation) is placing waaay too much emphasis on the expenditure of money. That money means nothing. And to argue that it does is to make the evening transactional, which it isn’t.
By saying that she owe[s] him nothing, I didn’t mean to imply that she d[oesn't] owe him courtesy. We all owe each other that, unless we establish we don’t deserve it.”
-Gene Weingarten
July 24th, 2006 at 11:34 am
Guys: Never, ever buy a drink for a girl at a bar, unless you don’t care about the money you are pulling out of your pocket for the drink. It’s not a matter of being cheap. It’s the simple fact, that if you buy someone a drink, they are under no obligation to give you even the time of day. They didn’t ask for the drink. In truth, most of the time you are even buying the drink is because you don’t have a way “in”, or you did, and the conversation is dwindling, and it’s the only thing you can think of to hopefully save the conversation. Don’t bother, unless you really don’t care about the money.
I used to be the guy above, when I first turned 21, etc. But I now know that if you need to buy a drink in order to facilitate a conversation with another human being…there really isn’t much hope for a conversation in the first place. Be yourself, and walk up and talk…take your chances with that.
July 24th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
In the end the basic question is: Are you a nice/decent person? That’s all. All this talk about men should pay or buying a drink is a gamble or implies this or that. It doesn’t really matter the situation. In the end it what kind of person you are. I know plenty of people who regardless of how the date when or if there was a future would pay half the bill because they are nice and want to. I know an equal number of people who got out to see how many drink they can score and then walk away. Mind you these are both men and women. The question people have to ask what type a person they are? You can break ritual anytime you want or follow it. Breaking it or following it can at any time to financially good or bad for you. I’m not arguing that Darren is or isn’t entitled to the money. I’m just pointing out that everyone is arguing about norms/rituals/the game/signals/etc. But if someone offers a drink the “receiver” can A) say I can talk to this person and get a drink or b) just get a drink and walk away or C)say thanks but no thanks. Objectively if you’re not the give or the receiver you can easily say that the one buying is gambling yes. but if the receiver picks a) that person is person who is will to give it a chance. B) is a person who doesn’t care and just wants the drink and c) is probably fairly honest. In the end that tells you a lot about the person which is what the person buying the drink wanted to know.
July 24th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
That was possibly the best post I have ever read. I guess I won’t be using jdate anytime soon!!
July 24th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
He probably expects to get laid if he gives a girl a backrub.
So THAT’S what Bush was trying to do with the German Chancellor!
July 24th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
We never hear his side of the story. There are a lot of women around who are nothing more than amoral users. He was probably a nice guy who became increasingly paranoid after dealing with those types and now his expectations are entirely predicated based on past experiences. He would do well in considering finding a wife abroad, who tend to be more cultured and have better values than American women.
July 24th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
In response to the guest who wrote that women should split the bill if the date goes poorly and she doesn’t dig the dude, I wholeheartedly disagree. Any amount of money a man spends on a first date is simply an investment in the opportunity to impress a woman and test the waters; it does NOT buy a second date, or, for that matter, sex following dinner. The money only buys the man the woman’s undivided attention for the duration of the date; anything beyond that is won by his personality, charm, humor, intelligence, and sex appeal. If the performance was a bust, for god’s sake the poor woman should at least get the consilation prize of a free dinner.
July 24th, 2006 at 2:24 pm
To: ANP
You’re correct that this is an urban legend, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen in real life however. As to the whole “if you buy a drink you should get some conversation thing” I can sort of see your point but at worst if a woman accepts the drink and takes off after a minute she’s being slightly rude. It is a gamble. Really though, it’s common sense, if you’re not interested, don’t just take the drink and be like “thanks, see ya!” Just say “not interested” right off the bat.
July 24th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
In all honesty i thin $50 is a small price to pay for all the time that little email exchange saved.
I mean really if you could have one date, then pay a flat $50 fee to find out that its never going to work its gonna save you both time and money in the long run. Without this little exchange it could have been months and several more dates before she found out what an asshole he was.
Hmm i smell a buisiness venture….
July 24th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Women who “trick” men into buying them drinks all night are no worse than the men who think a great way to meet women in bars is to say, “Can I buy you a drink?” If that’s the best you can do, if you have so little to say to a woman that you think you have to immediately buy 10 minutes of her time with a drink in order to obligate her to have a short conversation with you, you deserve what you get. I think buying a woman a drink the way that guy did earns him no more than a “Thanks.” And that’s if the woman is in a good mood.
What the guy who got upset doesn’t seem to understand is that women in bars never get free drinks, that the drinks they get from suckers like him are well earned by putting up with with the constant, unwanted, unsolicited attentions of my entire gender. Perhaps someone should inform him that for every “free” drink that woman got that night, she got her ass grabbed by three different disgusting, drunken men. Pretty sweet deal she’s got going there, huh?
July 24th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
JDate Stands for Jackass!
As most people recognize, the online dating world is full of perils. Misleading photos. People who insist that they love walks on the beach, when in fact they live in landlocked states. Married men looking for some swinging action, and…
July 24th, 2006 at 7:12 pm
My thoughts;
I think I can understand the fellow’s mentality, and it isn’t about money.
He probably liked the girl and felt frustrated when she didn’t reply. In a situation like that, a lot of people (colloquially, ’stalker’ types) would want to make repeated efforts to contact a person and, later, to ‘hurt’ them at least in a symbolic way (thus restoring their belief that life is fair)
The $50 is just a way of accomplishing that; an excuse to contact a girl who (he believed) wanted nothing to do with him and a way to have the ‘last laugh’
Remember, in the urban legend, which obviously inspired this, the girl paid without question, so, by refusing, not only had he failed to get (and, remember, I’m describing his perspective) ‘justice,’ but her repeated refusals have hurt him again
Now, as to my own opinion on the morality…
In this case, from what I’ve read, it seems that this particular case all stems from a mistake on Dennis’ part. He should have made more polite efforts to arrange a second date or, even, made enquiries about her whereabouts. (Although, it is interesting to note that if he had simply made repeated phonecalls over the following weeks without recieving an answer, that too would be considered ’stalking’ behaviour (although, in reality, quite practical since she was on a trip or whatever the case was.))
So, anyway, for the simple reason that Dennis’ jumped the gun, I think his actions, specifically, are wrong and he should really (for the sake of his own philosophical growth) acknowledge that he is wrong (perhaps to the girl, but definitely to himself. I, in my own experience, have found that it is a very healthy feeling to realise one own’s mistakes.)
As to the broader concept; well, I think it’s an awfully good idea. I don’t actually date, personally, but I imagine it would be awfully annoying having someone agree to a second date (especially if I like the person) and then discovering weeks or more later she lied and wanted never to see me again (indeed, when I first read the urban legend, I thought it was intended (true or false) as one of those ’sweet revenge’ type urban legends.
There is, quite simply, no need for such lies. If a woman doesn’t want to see a guy again, she should tell him to his face and save him from a great deal of false-hopes, etc.
As for the drink story; I think buying a woman a drink to start a conversation is simply a bad idea (precisely because there’s women like that in world) so the fellow’s actions were, if not morally wrong, at least unwise.
The girl’s actions, however, were astonishingly wrong. Regardless of wether or not she was obligated to chat with the fellow (and for how long, etc.) it was abundantly obvious that the fellow bought the drink to start a conversation and if she didn’t want to chat, she should have refused it.
I think, the mistake a lot of you people are making is thinking in terms of drink, therefor, conversation.
I think it’s more like conversation, therefor, drink. The fellow is basically saying “Ã would like to talk to you” and if she wants to say “That is good, let’s chat” then she should accept the drink.
July 24th, 2006 at 7:36 pm
This is the funniest thing I have ever seen !!! I read it in the daily news and came to the website. I am also o jdate and it is what it is, another way to meet people and connect. Hats off to the Joanne.. If she reads this Id love to buy her dinner at her favorite restaurant so she knows there are some quality guys out there
July 24th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
I had no intention of commenting twice, but after reading this line: “What this all boils down to for me, is that men screw women over EVERY day. So if a girl finds a way for a few free drinks…well, God forbid. ;)” I simply couldn’t help myself.
Excusing bad behavior by using someone else’s bad behavior as a “reason,” is immaturity and irresponsibility at its finest. Once you pass the age of 18, saying (out loud or even to yourself) “Well, they did it first” is pitiful.
Setting a good example through your personal code and actions - not only for yourself, but for others - is a Hell of a lot more productive way of living. There’s no scorecard, honey. You don’t win any prize for being a jackass to other people. It won’t even make you feel better about yourself.
Bottom line, is if you have to give yourself excuses for doing something (well, they did it first), you already KNOW it’s wrong. Stop, and reconsider.
July 24th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
contrary to what someone else posted, this guy probably *is* dangerous. He has no ability to step back or let things go. Once he had his mind on something (repayment for half the cost of the dinner), he called and emailed her several times a day (sometimes several times an hour) and threatened to tell her employer and have her issued a summons at work. He wanted to ruin her career all because she didn’t want to go out with him again. That’s insanity! And he didn’t for a minute seem to think that her employer wouldn’t care - he had it in his head that he would call her boss and have a nice chat about it. That’s completely unrealistic. People who are this unrealistic are scary.
It was also very manipulative of him to ultimately say it’s “her choice” to be served a summons or not. He backed her into a corner and then made it seem like she had done it to herself.
Finally, as for the whole debate on what buying someone a drink means: I have turned down drinks at bars when I knew I didn’t want to talk to someone. But only because it seemed polite. Not because I was in any way obligated to. Sure it’s not nice to accept a free drink and then walk away, but women have every right to do that. It just makes them impolite, but last time I checked there weren’t any laws against that.
July 24th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
a drink is a drink and if you buy someone a drink, you are taking a 50/50 chance that that person may talk to you. It’s called the “bar scene”. if you don’t like buying people drinks at a bar, then stay home and be a hermit! As far as for Darren and Joanne….Darren..my brother…what the hell is wrong with you!IT’S A DATE!!..let’s think…how much did she spend getting ready for the date…hmmm..make up, let’s say $20, hair $30, dress $50-100, taxi cab (if she took one and depending where she was going) $30-$40. That seems to add up to more than $50! so, i think she should send a bill for all that she did to get ready for the date.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:30 am
Kevin, if the guy wants to give his side of the story, he’s got an opportunity. He could post a blog about it, or respond back to one of any of the sites discussing it.
I find it unlikely that he hasn’t heard about his notoriety yet. He may just be attempting to let it blow over, since often it merely makes it worse to try to put a stop to a meme like this.
Considering the facts and his attempts to get the $50, I gotta say he doesn’t seem all that cultured himself. Not exactly sure why you think he should be looking abroad for a more cultured wife than the women here.
His responses can’t be excused simply by suggesting he’d experienced a lot of amoral women who have used him. If that were the case, he could have accepted the offer to go dutch when the woman made it. If she’d never offered, would he have tried to get the money later simply because he thought he’d been used?
The guy really has no defense, unless there’s more to the story than we’re told or if the story is simply fake. I suspect it is entirely true, as he seems to be a real person and hasn’t responded. All he would need to do is initiate a lawsuit claiming slander if the situation isn’t true.
July 25th, 2006 at 8:57 am
A.-I think everyone is losing sight of what the issue at hand is. I am not saying we have not all had odd/bad/weird dates, but the issue here is Darren’s level of insanity and what he did to Joanne, whom in the voicemails he refers to as Joan, my favorite part. Darren is by all means real and by all means crazy.
B.- This has nothing to do with being impolite about someone buying you a drink and walking away-who does that anyways? My lord..another subject for another time.
C.- And this most certainly does NOT have to be with being Jewish and to be honest with you, it has become rather insulting to “us jews” who are reading this. If you note, the story has to do with jdate.
So, back to basic kids..Darren Sherman is the issue and what he did to Joanne and the many other women on jdate which caused him to get suspended from their site.
and always remember “you ate the food, you drank the wine..”
July 25th, 2006 at 1:55 pm
I’m still shuddering. Oy.
Now I must bow down and say a few prayers that include the phrase, “Thank you lord that I am still not dating” and then call my husband just because.
I have my own crazy dating stories but nothing as scary as that.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
akaria, this really happened.
If you want to know for yourself, call the resty, who will verify and Jdate to ask about D, they will tell you he has been suspended for this.
Have some clue as to what you are talking about you cocky little prick.
July 25th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
James Cates, YOU ROCK!
A date is a date is a date! Typically, the man pays. If Darren didn’t want to pay, he shouldn’t have gone!
The issue really was that Darren couldn’t handle the perceived rejection. What a looney tune! He’ll never date again, and rightfully so. Can you imagine living with that guy? Jeeeesh!!!!
July 25th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
And this is why you should be careful when accepting dates through internet-dating websites.
July 25th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
This has actually made it’s way to a Nashville Predators fan site, if you can believe that! So pathetic and twisted are the Tales of Darren the serial stalker, that this news has actually made its way to a hockey message forum.
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Pre.....owtopic=65
It just goes to show, don’t act like a turd publicly, because you NEVER know who is going to find out about it!!!
July 25th, 2006 at 9:57 pm
The (very) creepy side of Internet Dating
PR. Differently: How Not to Act on J-Date Wow. This guy makes me look smooth….
July 25th, 2006 at 10:21 pm
The amount of time Darren spent trying to get his money back was worth more than $50! CHEAP!
Maybe JDate should give the guys a lesson on common dating practices and behavior. I actually had a guy try to rub my neck within 20-30 minutes then say goodbye without paying the bill or even offering! Somehow I thought he’d stopped by the waitress to pay up on his way out until I got the bill for his drinks and mine! That put me off Jdate for months! (I’m back though)
July 25th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
Holy Sleeplessness! No Wonder Im Stupid…
Its my girlfriends fault
Update: Which has nothing to do with a Steve Green sighting, but this still seems like a good time to mention that he has been seen. Which is nice.
Update: None of which explains the lack…
July 25th, 2006 at 10:59 pm
WOW I’m speechless….just…speechless. And I never thought of George Costanza until I read it in one of the posts - THAT’S the only person on earth I can imagine doing this….and he’s not real. Or….is he????
July 25th, 2006 at 11:52 pm
There was a pretty simple warning there, had the woman involved but realised. Never,EVER contact someone who uses ‘whom’ so horribly, awfully incorrectly - “I am a person whom is usually on the go,”
July 26th, 2006 at 12:32 am
This buy-a-drink thing is soft-core prostitution. Everybody just stop it.
July 26th, 2006 at 1:10 am
Go Dutch, or I’ll Sue
A note to women everywhere: avoid dating, at all costs (or at least at half costs), Mr. Darren Sherman….
July 26th, 2006 at 2:13 am
Isn’t George Castanza Italian?
July 26th, 2006 at 6:10 am
The thing is, though, that she did intend to contact him again about seeing each other after that.
I think she was lying so as to get out of payment. She should pay. That said, I have never heard this “the inviter pays” rule; one woman I dated invited me out to a place that was ridiculously exorbitant and then expected me to pay. No offense, but I generally don’t spend 220 dollars on a first date. The nerve of this woman. You’re damn right I extracted a good half of the bill from her, especially since she was technically responsible for 2/3rds of the bill. Now, if I had been too much of a wuss not to damn payment right then and there and I contacted her a day later via e-mail, she still should have paid.
July 26th, 2006 at 7:45 am
Oy vey! Not with my daughter, you schmuck!
It is after reading a little ditty about Darren and Joanne (hey, that would go with a JCM song…) I thank my stars that I am not in the dating scene. Thank you for my wonderful wife. I don’t have to go through this at J Date:
July 26th, 2006 at 8:31 am
I went out with a guy who conveniently left HIS wallet at home, and promised to pay me back only if I went out with him again. I liked him enough to agree, but he never did pay me back.
As far as drinks, who cares? She owes the guy a smile and a thank you, or a no thank you. That’s IT.
Personally, I always preferred first dates with guys I didn’t know well be someplace simple and cheap, like out for coffee or meet in a mall. That way, if either of us didn’t like the other, we could each end it quickly. How many times have you figured out in 5 minutes there was no chemistry?
And if I stayed for the whole date, but didn’t want to go out again, and he asked on the first for a second date, I wouldn’t say “yes”. I might say, let me think about it, or call me, but never, ever and absolute yes.
Of course, when I dated, I didn’t get many second dates, because I wouldn’t put out on the first. Their loss, not mine.
July 26th, 2006 at 9:04 am
JDater of the month award
And the JDater of the month award goes to Darren Sherman.
…
July 26th, 2006 at 9:28 am
An excellent and comprehensive (if incredibly disturbing) post. My only regret was not having gotten to this story before everyone else did…and I call myself a dating columnist…
I’ll be posting on this (crediting you, of course, as the source) later.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:38 am
Many years ago, I took a woman out (and I did pay), and she relayed a story to me. I have no way of knowing if it’s true, but I pass it to you so that web surfers can get horror bill-pay-dating stories taken care of on one page.
The woman told me how she was out with a successful businessman who then insisted that she pay. This wasn’t until the end of the meal when the conversation happened.
His reasoning was that being with him ought to have been privilege enough.
This would be bad enough, but as fate would have it, she didn’t imagine she would have to pay because HE OWNED THE RESTAURANT where their meal took place.
Allow me to let that sink in: She meets a guy, he owns a restaurant, he invites her to dinner at it, he insists that she pay.
Peter, if you ever find the WTF keys big enough, send them here!
Look, I realize that gray areas are out there. But it’s safe to say that if you invite a woman to a restaurant, then do not make her pay if you OWN THE RESTAURANT.
(It was a local place near Minneapolis, MN. It was not a chain. I will give no further details so as to spare the universal abuse that would otherwise be forthcoming on this guy.)
July 26th, 2006 at 10:53 am
http://www.self-aggrandizement.....es/#002868
How not to act on J-Date….
July 26th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
Oh, I am so glad I am long since married and out of the dating scene.
The gal was lucky she was out of town when he tried to call her. Imagine how long it may have taken her to discover what he was really like if she had been home to answer the phone?
Seriously, if you ask someone out, you should expect to pick up the check. If you don’t want to pick up a big check, don’t go somewhere expensive. It might be better to keep a first meeting low key anyway, say a bagel or coffee shop. It might be easier to be oneself without a lot of ambiance anyway.
All I can say is that it looks complicated to be single today and scary too if one’s a woman.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
WOW! Have things changed…I am shocked at many of these postings! For some of you men, what happened to chivalry? And for some of you women, what happened to basic mannners?
I will say upfront that i am a clinical psychotherapist in private practice and treat several couples and many 20-40 something singles, so I feel that I have a good gage on the dating market and what is going on inside people’s heads. Plus, I have done the dating sites as well, and after several long-term relationships and dating experiences throughout the years, though I haven’t found my match, I am still optimistic (perhaps choosy)and hope to find my match…(or beshert ;))
Re: Darren: he’s not the typical guy and he’s not the typical Jewish person, either, so let’s not totally stereotype. He’s a sick individual who needs help. I AM NOT JEWISH THOUGH COULD BE (LONG STORY), AND RELIGION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. IT HAS TO DO WITH CLASS AND MENTAL STABILITY.
I think most men are awesome, even if they hadn’t been right for me, and it’s all about approaching dating with a positive attitude. Thankfully, in Chicago, I have dated 100’s of guys and they all believed in chivalry…I have never been asked to split the bill nor have I offered (don’t get the wrong idea guys; I explain my philosophy below), and I have NEVER been short on dates, so to the women out there, maybe the Midwest is the place to date…?
In any event, here are some of my thoughts…I truly pride myself on being a great girlfriend and have been told consistently that i am, but there are phases as to how that develops:
1) Re: dating, I believe a man should ALWAYS pay…it’s called COURTSHIP. Allowing a woman to pull out a wallet at the table is so classless, let alone a true indicator that the man who allows it is totally cheap and likely shouldn’t be dating. If he wants to go dutch, he should be out with his “friends.” Otherwise, what is the difference between hanging with a friend and a date? Certainly, if a man balks at paying, or even considers or wishes his date would hand him money, it indicates that he doesn’t believe his date is worth courting ie remember He’s Just Not That Into You, darling…very bad sign.
2) Simultaneously, a woman should ALWAYS be courteous, engaging (whether she likes him or not) and thankful when a man does something nice for her (ie take her out or buy her a drink if she agreed to it).
If she is NOT INTERESTED BEFORE the date or the drink offer, she should NOT accept the date and she should NOT accept the drink being offered by the guy in the bar. Shame on any woman who just tries to get a free meal or drink, and then ignores the guy or is rude…that is classless and you give other nice women a bad name. Then you are just as bad as the cheap guy, but you are a cheap girl.
If a woman is not interested DURING the date, she should still always be polite, engaging and thank him at the end of the evening. (And for both parties: no looking around, texting, emailing, making phone calls or receiving “emergency calls” at the table - so disrespectful and rude!)
*****However, if all is going well and the woman is interested and continues to date the man, she should RECIPROCATE his generosity (AFTER a few dates where he shows he thinks she’s worthy of courting) and offer to make him dinner, pick up tickets to the hottest sporting event, latest Broadway play, museum exhibit or concert by his favorite band (because she was interested in him and listening on the dates to what he likes), drop off homemade cookies or his favorite dessert with a sweet note in his mailbox or with his doorman, pick up a fun article of clothing, cologne or book indicative of his personality or tastes, and/or pack him a picnic and take him to favorite outdoor park, concert or venue, etc., etc.
*****To the men reading this, notice she never had to pull out her wallet at the table! There is a give and take, but there are ways to do this without splitting bills or going DUTCH! (So tacky).
3)Finally, I am not saying ALL, but MOST women want to know that a man is a take-charge guy, driven and ambitious and that he prides himself on being able to take care of his woman financially among other ways. WOMEN FIND THIS SEXY. And this type of guy wouldn’t even expect or want a woman to offer to pay or pull out her wallet. It would embarrass him (unless it’s his birthday or other special occasion, etc.) This is just like MOST men want to know that a woman can be nurturing, make a nice home and that she knows her way around the kitchen, let alone other places. A woman who says, “I don’t cook or clean” and has an uninviting home is not attractive to most men. Even if he thinks she’s HOT, she won’t be the one he brings home to mama or the one that will mother his children. A woman who doesn’t think her man is worthy of cleaning up for and cooking a nice meal for(and anyone who can read can follow a cookbook recipe - no excuses!) deserves the guy who doesn’t think she’s worthy of courting and paying for.
This is not to say both parties CANNOT have careers if they choose, but most daters are assessing the other for how a potential partnership/marriage might work…IE VALUES, CHEMISTRY, COMMUNICATION, COMPATIBILITY, ETC. Can we create a nice home and/or family together?
It’s all part of the courtship dance…the question becomes in the dating world, are you going to sit it out or dance? And if you dance, what kind of dance partner do you want to be? What you put in is what you get out in life…it’s that simple.
Kindness, compassion, generosity, respect, passion, warmth, laughter, etc…if you want them, you have to give them!
July 26th, 2006 at 2:56 pm
This story is awesome, but I don’t see why people think it confirms stereotypes about Jews being cheap. It seems like it wasn’t actually about the money for Darren, but about him trying to find a way to regain the upper hand after he (mistakenly) believed he had been rejected. His uber-cold “business” tone and his totally off-base attitude of moral superiority give away how pathetic and desperate he was to have the upper hand and somehow “win” against Joanne. I doubt the $50 was anything more to him than the only way he could see to try and get back at her.
Oh well, sucks to be him.
July 26th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Are you serious? A woman paying her own way like an adult is “classless?” In what world - the one where men are supposed to purchase women’s time? 1950, perhaps?
Sorry. I make my own money, and get my own things. You call it classless, I call it being an adult. Splitting costs puts people on an equal level. Expecting someone to pay for you, is selling yourself.
By that same token, I’m surprised you don’t understand that being considered a friend by your partner, is what makes for lasting relationships. Anyone can hook up because of mere attraction and chemistry - that’s biological. Eventually though, physical attraction and lust starts to lose its immediacy, and then what? You wake up next to someone you don’t particularly like, because you never considered them your friend. One more breakup/divorce, coming up.
I’ll take my 15-year and going stronger every year relationship with my husband and BEST FRIEND, thanks. Even when I was single, I wasn’t for sale.
July 26th, 2006 at 5:36 pm
i agree with every single word you said, loren. amen!
July 26th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
First off… this guy is a complete loser. That said, both sexes can show poor taste when it comes to paying for meals.
A girl I had been on three dates with called me up one afternoon and invited me to join her and a friend for lunch. After an extended lunch and a number of alcoholic beverages the check arrived, at which time the friend (who I had just met) looked at me and said “are you picking up the check”? Ah ha, I thought… my purpose at the lunch had revealed itself.
Did I pay for everyone? Yes… without hesitation. Did I call the girl back after our “date”? Nope. I may have been out $120, but I gained an insight into her character that sometimes takes months to discern. Best to write off the $120 AND the girl in one fell swoop.
July 26th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
As a dude, I can tell you that all you guys buying girls stuff are total jackasses. If I were a hot chick, I’d be taking drinks, dinners, trips to Hawaii, etc off jackasses like you too.
Have some self-respect and make sure that a woman respects you before spending even a penny on her. On a first date, I’ll buy a girl a drink and that’s it. On the rare occaisions where things are going especially well and I’m a bit more generous, I do it because it makes me feel good to offer something to this woman, not because I’m expecting ANYTHING in return.
All of you social retards taking chicks to expensive dinners on the first or even 2nd dates are broadcasting the message that “I need you to approve of me so here’s some money. Please love me. I mean, I spent some bucks here, so you owe me something in exchange you whore.”
Yeah, chicks LOVE that!
July 26th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
Loren, that was incredible. Great post! I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said
July 26th, 2006 at 7:46 pm
MMMMMM……CHINA GRILL…
July 26th, 2006 at 8:22 pm
So dumb he is eh? Yep, this is definetely HOW NOT TO ACT with women.
If I ever date. I buy a drink or two to the girl. At the second date, she pays the bill…
Just think why?
If I like the girl, there is a second date.
Oh she wants a third date. And she does everything to get it.
Oh yea everything
July 26th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
Just a comment - I also believe in the “Whomever asks, Pays” idea. But, I also believe that if there is a significant difference in personal “wealth” between the two parties (lhe Guy being a 6-figured executive and the woman being a normally paid whatever), then the one with the riches should pay - all the time. To make someone who is struggling to get by, pay “just because it’s her turn”, when the same amount of money is just a drop in the bucket to the other person, just isn’t right. And, if the rich person is so tight with their money about that, then who needs them.
Bottom line is genetics - men need beauty and women need security. If you insist we have perfect bodies and faces and wear clothes and shoes more uncomfortable than you can even begin to imagine, then you gotta provide. Which means - Paying. It’s genetics.
July 26th, 2006 at 9:01 pm
This guys is typical believe it or not…too bad her never read the book
DaVagina Code he could have saved himself a ton of cash and be the guy that gets women.
Understanding how attraction works IS PARAMOUNT.
Remember the words of Kenny Rogers….KNOW WHEN TO FOLD ‘EM & KNOW WHEN TO RUN……and never ever count your money when you are sitting at the table.
Don’t be left out, get the insiders secrets DAREN…….learn from this mistake and RECOVER AND THIS TIME KICK ASS!!!
AND TO YOU GUYS/GALS READING THIS……..theres a lot of men like Darren, he is not BEYOND HELP…..He just needs a skill set.
Trust me he CAN recover, from this.
MJ
July 27th, 2006 at 1:35 am
the guy isn’t cheap….he’s a friggin’ control freak.
July 27th, 2006 at 3:05 am
To KS and Anna…thanks for your supportive comments…glad we’re on the same page!
To Danny, bummer! I think that what the girl did that you were dating (and espec. her friend)was totally presumtuous and rude. SHE absolutely should have offered to pay because it was not a “date” at the time. In addition, since you had already taken her out 3 times (I’ll assume you paid) and she invited you along on this last get-together, I think she should have offered to TREAT YOU! I do think it’s cool you paid, but I guess, in the end, it’s her loss.
To Marcy, just curious…where do you come up with the concept that people are “for sale” if they go on a “date” with someone? Dating and chivalry are not dead! And what makes you think people who “date” are not “adults?” Just because I am a smart and successful “adult” woman doesn’t mean I do not enjoy being treated like a lady. If I enjoy a dinner date with a nice man and he pays, I do not see myself “for sale;” rather, I see myself as being courted. Yes, in 2006! I welcome chivalry and do not need to emasculate a man to prove to him my success and/or ability to pay. I am sorry you never felt worthy of being courted by your husband or previous men, but with all due respect, paying half your way to “buy equality” does not make you an “adult;” it makes you a fool.
And if I choose to make dinner for a man and spend a substantial amount of money on food and beverages for us to enjoy in an effort to make him feel special, I do not think he is “for sale!” I respect and treat him like the “adult” man he is and hope he knows I value and appreciate him so much so that I wanted to put forth the effort to indicate as such. I would NEVER EVER ask him to pay for half the groceries I purchased, let alone my time to peruse through recipes and plan the meal, shop at several grocery stores and specialty shops, clean the house, set a beautiful table, prepare the meal and clean up! (And, what about the mani/pedi/and possible Victoria’s Secret Treat for dessert?) The tab could go on and on…how ridiculous!
Dating is not about splitting the tab down the middle anymore than marriage is about splitting bills in half…that’s called rommmates. Relationships are NOT about keeping score; they are about sharing true intimacy, bringing the best of yourself to the table and giving of yourself in the ways you can to make the other person feel valued and special…because you want to, NOT because you owe them. To me, that’s what being in an “adult” relationship is about!
And for the record, I treat EVERYONE as my equal, regardless of what is in their wallet. No one has to “buy” their right to be treated equally. I am sorry that if you pay the bill, you see the person you are treating as less than equal and if someone treats you, then you think of yourself as somehow less than equal. Never heard that set of beliefs before. I find it very sad. I don’t know who you dated in your lifetime, but I have never been treated as less than equal by a man just because he paid and to suggest that normal, emotionally healthy men would act that way is insulting to the male race, don’t you think? Are you suggesting that the men in your life would say, “Pay up or shut up?” And that your “best friend” husband would treat you as such simply because he paid your way? I find that to be completely ridiculous. And what if a woman is a stay-at-home mother? She has no salary, yet she has the most important job in the world, so in your mind, is she not an “adult” if she doesn’t pay for half the family meal or diner date when she and her husband go out? I think the most “adult” thing a woman can do for her children if she is going to bear them is to really be there for them, not pawn them off on a nanny, so she can have a career to pay for her own dinners in an effort to be “equal.” Her role as a mother goes far beyond the definition as “equal.” And if you maintain your mindset about paying your way as constituting you as “equal,” are you also keeping score on diaper changes, and feedings? Then is breastfeeding ruled out, (even though it is considered the best thing for an infant up to 12 months) because a man doesn’t have breasts and cannot “equally” do the feedings? Or maybe women shouldn’t even bear children because, after all, the men are not pregnant half the time? This can go on and on, you see…Men and Women ARE equal in importance, but are also different in their constitution and have been since the beginning of time. We all have roles to play. I do not want to be “the man.” Despite my belief in equal rights, I still want to maintain my femininity. Nor are men looking to be women just because they are more sensitive or in touch with their feelings and more involved as nurturing fathers. You cannot measure or quantify people’s value and contributions to a relationship with a calculator…that line of thinking is seriously flawed.
Lastly, when I suggested that there’s a difference between hanging with a friend and going out on a date, you presumed that those of us who “date” cannot become “best friends” which is totally wrong. You said your husband is your “best friend” which is great but you seem to be suggesting in your blog entry that “dating” (including being “physically attracted”) and being “best friends” are mutually exclusive…? What makes you think that if a handsome man values you enough to court you that he cannot be your “best friend,” too? I would bet my annual salary that if you asked all the single women out there it they’d be interested in a handsome, chivalrous man who courts them and who could also be their “best friend,” 99% of the women (minus the stauch women libber/feminists) would say, “BRING HIM ON!”
Best of luck to all of you!
And, just remember, you attract that which occurs…
July 27th, 2006 at 3:12 am
To KS and Anna…thanks for your supportive comments…glad we’re on the same page!
To Danny, bummer! I think that what the girl did that you were dating (and espec. her friend)was totally presumtuous and rude. SHE absolutely should have offered to pay because it was not a “date” at the time. In addition, since you had already taken her out 3 times (I’ll assume you paid) and she invited you along on this last get-together, I think she should have offered to TREAT YOU! I do think it’s cool you paid, but I guess, in the end, it’s her loss.
To Marcy, just curious…where do you come up with the concept that people are “for sale” if they go on a “date” with someone? Dating and chivalry are not dead! And what makes you think people who “date” are not “adults?” Just because I am a smart and successful “adult” woman doesn’t mean I do not enjoy being treated like a lady. If I enjoy a dinner date with a nice man and he pays, I do not see myself “for sale;” rather, I see myself as being courted. Yes, in 2006! I welcome chivalry and do not need to emasculate a man to prove to him my success and/or ability to pay. I am sorry you never felt worthy of being courted by your husband or previous men, but with all due respect, paying half your way to “buy equality” does not make you an “adult;” it makes you a fool.
And if I choose to make dinner for a man and spend a substantial amount of money on food and beverages for us to enjoy in an effort to make him feel special, I do not think he is “for sale!” I respect and treat him like the “adult” man he is and hope he knows I value and appreciate him so much so that I wanted to put forth the effort to indicate as such. I would NEVER EVER ask him to pay for half the groceries I purchased, let alone my time to peruse through recipes and plan the meal, shop at several grocery stores and specialty shops, clean the house, set a beautiful table, prepare the meal and clean up! (And, what about the mani/pedi/and possible Victoria’s Secret Treat for dessert?) The tab could go on and on…how ridiculous!
Dating is not about splitting the tab down the middle anymore than marriage is about splitting bills in half…that’s called rommmates. Relationships are NOT about keeping score; they are about sharing true intimacy, bringing the best of yourself to the table and giving of yourself in the ways you can to make the other person feel valued and special…because you want to, NOT because you owe them. To me, that’s what being in an “adult” relationship is about!
And for the record, I treat EVERYONE as my equal, regardless of what is in their wallet. No one has to “buy” their right to be treated equally. I am sorry that if you pay the bill, you see the person you are treating as less than equal and if someone treats you, then you think of yourself as somehow less than equal. Never heard that set of beliefs before. I find it very sad. I don’t know who you dated in your lifetime, but I have never been treated as less than equal by a man just because he paid and to suggest that normal, emotionally healthy men would act that way is insulting to the male race, don’t you think? Are you suggesting that the men in your life would say, “Pay up or shut up?” And that your “best friend” husband would treat you as such simply because he paid your way? I find that to be completely ridiculous. And what if a woman is a stay-at-home mother? She has no salary, yet she has the most important job in the world, so in your mind, is she not an “adult” if she doesn’t pay for half the family meal or diner date when she and her husband go out? I think the most “adult” thing a woman can do for her children if she is going to bear them is to really be there for them, not pawn them off on a nanny, so she can have a career to pay for her own dinners in an effort to be “equal.” Her role as a mother goes far beyond the definition as “equal.” And if you maintain your mindset about paying your way as constituting you as “equal,” are you also keeping score on diaper changes, and feedings? Then is breastfeeding ruled out, (even though it is considered the best thing for an infant up to 12 months) because a man doesn’t have breasts and cannot “equally” do the feedings? Or maybe women shouldn’t even bear children because, after all, the men are not pregnant half the time? This can go on and on, you see…Men and Women ARE equal in importance, but are also different in their constitution and have been since the beginning of time. We all have roles to play. I do not want to be “the man.” Despite my belief in equal rights, I still want to maintain my femininity. Nor are men looking to be women just because they are more sensitive or in touch with their feelings and more involved as nurturing fathers. You cannot measure or quantify people’s value and contributions to a relationship with a calculator…that line of thinking is seriously flawed.
Lastly, when I suggested that there’s a difference between hanging with a friend and going out on a date, you presumed that those of us who “date” cannot become “best friends” which is totally wrong. You said your husband is your “best friend” which is great but you seem to be suggesting in your blog entry that “dating” (including being “physically attracted”) and being “best friends” are mutually exclusive…? What makes you think that if a handsome man values you enough to court you that he cannot be your “best friend,” too? I would bet my annual salary that if you asked all the single women out there it they’d be interested in a handsome, chivalrous man who courts them and who could also be their “best friend,” 99% of the women (minus the stauch women libber/feminists) would say, “BRING HIM ON!”
Best of luck to all of you!
And, just remember, you attract that which occurs…
July 27th, 2006 at 9:06 am
Memo to J.C. and Greg:
Please get a clue pronto!
Even if there’s a “verbal agreement” between Person A and Person B about how payment is to be made *on a date* this does not in any way excuse or justify intimidating, sociopathic behavior on the part of one of them.
Obvsiously, AS IS CLEAR from the *audio evidence* posted by Peter, Joanne was an innocent victim in this case and Mr. Sherman –and he alone– was the abuser. Therefore, making excuses for Mr. Sherman self-centered and thuggish conduct –much less trying to defend him– is both irrational and inexcusable. A *gentleman* would not do such a thing.
IMO, J-Date would do well to cancel this SOB’s membership and issue a public apology for allowing him to join in the first place.
July 27th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
“What if you don’t run up exactly 50% of the bill?…..”
Alan Van der Elk-roydson, you are too funny!!!(You Were trying to be funny, right?) You made my day. Thank you!
C
July 27th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
I think the lady put it very well when she said he chose the date and if he was unhappy paying for it, he could have easily chosen a walk or coffee and she would have been just as happy. You have that choise as well. If you chose a fancy dinner for a first date, you should be prepared to pay. It’s your choice. If you want a smarter choice, ask her for coffee and talk first date, and then you are both aware going into the second.
July 27th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
As a woman, I believe we should never take for granted that someone will pay the bill; and when I know that my meal is being paid for, I pay attention to the prices, and pick reasonably (which is quite easy, as a vegetarian - those dishes are often cheaper than options with meat).
Because I prefer not to assume, I was surprised to read the following on a nicely compiled list of Dating Etiquette: “As a man you will pay the bill on the first date without question and you will not discuss money openly at this stage. Money discussions are crass and lack sophistication.”
And in the recently published Urban Etiquette Handbook: “The asker pays, unless the woman does the askingâthen the man should pay.”
We woman have an obligation to be respectful and courteous when we are the recipient of such generosity. (And I always have the cash on hand to pay for my meal, just in case.) Nevertheless, I truly believe that Darren’s open discussion of money after only one date was, indeed, crass and extremely immature.
July 27th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
Sounds to me like he should have simply hired a prostitute if he was looking for a *guaranteed* date…
Seriously, despite having explained later that she had intended to call him (prior to having heard all of his nonsense), she had every right to change her mind about whether she wanted to see him again; maybe it just didn’t click. That happens on dates sometimes. And once he refused her original offer to pay half, that was the end of that story. Statute of limitations is over IMMEDIATELY. He insisted on paying, and I can only guess that he did NOT make it clear that his full payment was contingent on getting a second date. “You don’t have to pay half if you promise me another date.”
Like I said, there are other ways to get guaranteed dates…
July 27th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Sounds to me like he should have simply hired a prostitute if he was looking for a *guaranteed* date…
Seriously, despite having explained later that she had intended to call him (prior to having heard all of his nonsense), she had every right to change her mind about whether she wanted to see him again; maybe it just didn’t click. That happens on dates sometimes. And once he refused her original offer to pay half, that was the end of that story. Statute of limitations is over IMMEDIATELY. He insisted on paying, and I can only guess that he did NOT make it clear that his full payment was contingent on getting a second date. “You don’t have to pay half if you promise me another date.”
Like I said, there are other ways to get guaranteed dates…
July 27th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
I am in shock at the comments. I am a woman who has only recently left the dating world & am so surprised to hear that any modern women think men should ALWAYS pay for dates. I earn a decent living, I support myself and I’m proud of these things. Why should I behave differently on dates?
One one of my last dates (through match.com), my date wanted to go to a very expensive restaurant that I had been to before and he hadn’t. I’d never met my date in person before. We had a pleasant date. When the bill came, I pulled out my purse. He seemed shocked. He said “No, I chose the place, I should pay.” I said, “No, no, that’s OK. I would feel better if I paid my share.” We split the bill evenly.
I quite liked the guy, but I didn’t see that we’d be a match. To be honest, he was incredibly good looking and extremely successful, and I always, perhaps incorrectly, suspect that type of a guy wants a ‘trophy’ and not an independent partner.
To my great surprise, this man followed up and wanted another date. I probably would have gone, but in the interim I had met someone I was more interested in (current boyfriend.) I said thanks but no thanks, and mentioned that I was flattered and surprised that he was interested. He said, “I was just so impressed that you paid your half. I can’t stop thinking about that. That is the first date I’ve ever been on where a woman paid.”
I am of two minds about this. First, for his sake, I thought, “How sad.”
Second, after reading these posts, for you maniuplative women out there wanting to snag a rich husband, perhaps expecting him to pay all the time is the wrong way to go about it.
July 28th, 2006 at 12:14 am
I just double checked Snopes, and this is not a hoax (http://www.snopes.com/love/revenge/paydate.asp). It makes me feel sooooo much better about the dates I’ve been on.
My perspective? If someone asks me on a first date and chooses the place, I expect that he will pay. If I am not enjoying myself and clearly would never want to see the person again, I would certainly offer to pay. If I asked someone out myself, I would expect to pay.
Similarly, I’d suggest to drinksman that he ask the woman *before* putting in the order if she would like a drink. If she’s not interested, she can decline. If she might be interested, she can accept, but the simple act of buying a drink is not a guarantee of anything other than a conversation to see if you connect. If you don’t want this $10 experiment, you can always just try talking to her. Those of us not in the world’s oldest profession don’t need to be paid for our time.
By the same token, ladies, if you think a guy is a troll or you’re out with a boyfriend, politely decline, rather than taking advantage of someone’s desire to meet you.
Peter-is your bootcamp blog still up?
Catherine
July 28th, 2006 at 12:33 am
I don’t think that either Loren or Marcy is incorrect. It is the womans choice and it decides the type of man she is interested in. I find myself in the middle. I don’t really care who pays (money is just paper, people) but I want him to open doors, stand when I get up and just be a gentleman in general. Mostly, though, I just want good conversation and to have a good time. I also think it’s a great idea to have a cheap first date (whoever had the park idea– great idea… what’s more romantic than a pair of swings and the stars?) like coffee, a bookstore (I had a (male)friend who had a first date at a library- her idea and he fell for her hard for that alone… a girl who reads?!?!) or something like the dollar cinemas that they have here (who cares about two bucks?)
As for the drink thing- it’s polite to stay but no one is obligated to do anything. If I saw a guy throw a tantrum because a girl accepted a drink and then walked away- well-lets just say that if he came up to me I would just walk away. She was rude and so was he- neither of them are quality (i.e. polite, respectful, gentleman/ladylike) people.
July 28th, 2006 at 8:22 am
Having been on two J-Dates myself in London, I can only assume that the site is the final stomping ground of the sad, lonely and desperate, not to mention just plain WEIRD. My first date gave me a false name (DAVID), only revealing his real name (MELVIN) after we had been chatting for an hour. I wanted to say, ‘Honey, you had me at DAVID.’
My second date wanted to be whipped and caned. It was so bizarre that I actually wrote about it in my new book, ‘The Butcher, the Baker, the Candlestick Maker: An Erotic Memoir.’ From one publicist to another, tired of plugging, tired of life….
July 28th, 2006 at 8:57 am
F*** that. Women can pay their own way. I don’t get why all women seem to think that what they have between their legs is so damn hot that any guy should be thrilled, honoured and privileged to have a couple of thrusts at it after a dinner date.
i think any guy who dishes cash for a forst date is missing the point. You can have a perfectly decent date walking thru the park and not spending money.
July 28th, 2006 at 9:18 am
Having read and listened to the Joanne and darren dating saga, it confirms why I don’t uset he net for dating.
If I was Joanne I would have reported him to the dating site and the police for harrassment. Honestly the guy is obviously nuts, I pity the poor woman who finally ends up with this twit.
July 28th, 2006 at 9:20 am
My experiences, re: going dutch, is that no matter how had I (the lady!) insists on going dutch, the guy won’t have it. He INSISTS he pays. I actually find it humiliating when a guy overrides my request to go dutch. But short of following the waiter to the cash desk (and irritating my date for putting down his “manliness”), what can you do?
TBH, a guy getting all insistent like that is likely to put me off going for a second date (where I would offer to pay 100% if he’d paid the previous time!).
July 28th, 2006 at 10:06 am
…..I love this story…reminds of the time when I lived in New York in the 80’s (I’m English)….reminds me of a guy I knew who actually wrote a letter to friends of mine on a bachelor party where he asked for their share of the extra drinks bill he had as he had calculated that he had actually paid for one extra round that night compared to the other guys…..needless to say he was never invited out again….I have a similarish kind of shaming of an ebay scammer on my site….
cheers
m_l
July 28th, 2006 at 10:14 am
Right. I’ve spent a great many minutes reading this blog and the comments associated with it. Who can I invoice for the loss of my time?
July 28th, 2006 at 10:15 am
Seriously, I’m waiting. You wrote the words, you pay the money. Do the right thing.
July 28th, 2006 at 10:16 am
Right. I’ve spent a great many minutes reading this blog and the comments associated with it. Who can I invoice for the loss of my time?
July 28th, 2006 at 10:17 am
I’m serious. You wrote the words, you pay the money. Do the right thing people.
July 28th, 2006 at 11:14 am
Women tend to know within about a minute if they are interested in a guy, so if they decide they are not interested in you, and they stay chatting with you they are just humouring you until they can get away - that is just patronising you. wouldn’t you rather they just leave sooner rather than waste your time on small talk when they’re all the while counting down the minutes until they can leave. If they are in anyway creeped out by something you do in the first few minutes, no amount of chat will change that - the damage is done, there is really no point in prolonging it. even if she isn’t creeped out, she can often tell after a minute whether this guy has any potential to be her boyfriend, if not, may as well give up.
Guys will generally hang in for dear life, not really thinking if this girl could be someone special, they just want her.
Women need to feel charisma, charm, spark, attraction, that special something in a guy, if its not there, no amount of trying to force it will make it appear, its just not meant to be.
Men just want her to look good.
July 28th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
Think youve gone on bad dates?
Im sure most people have gone on at least one god awful date, but this just takes the cake. Peter Shankman recently posted a blog entry about one Mr. Darren Sherman who just cannot stand rejection. When Mr. Shermans date doesnt…
July 28th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
ooohhh I know this story all to freaking well. I too do the online dating thing, and have had my fair sahre of freaks. Its just dinner right? Or so you’d think.. for some, its an invite to “hook up, get married, move in together” oh the stories I could share with you…. I will if you wish for a good belly laugh.
July 28th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
loved it! haha.
July 28th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Remember guys. Don’t pull a Darren Sherman. F**KING LOSER!!!
July 28th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
This is depressing, but what can you do, there are poorly adjusted people out there. For a guy in the dating world, dinner is the price of admission, and you can’t make it contingent on the date working out after the fact. You pay your money and you take you chances. No it’s not particularly fair, but so what. There’s plenty that’s not fair, for example, it being okay for a guy to sleep around but not a woman. And to those ladies who take offense that the guy won’t go Dutch, don’t take it the wrong way. It’s probably not even that the guy wouldn’t like to go Dutch, it’s that he’s afraid that you’re testing him to see if he’s cheap. Or, you’re just offering to pay half as a gesture. Maybe you’re not one to test, but we’ve dated plenty of other women who are, so don’t be mad if we do the safe thing and pay for dinner ourselves.
July 29th, 2006 at 2:21 am
So much stuff written because of some maladjusted guy…. He desperately needs help and some serious self esteem boost. Perhaps he should just go to a hypnotist who could brainwash him into some happiness. What he did is a sign of an insecure or incredibly stressed and emotionally hurt individual. He should be barred from the dating scene for a couple of years or he’ll just keep freaking other ppl out and hurt himself more. If one does not have enough balls he’ll interpret any “mishap” in his dating life as a consequence of his own inadequacies and react in some silly and self destructive way. Sometimes people realize what’s happening to them and they recover.
July 29th, 2006 at 4:50 am
Darren Sherman - loser
So you take a girl out for a meal, she offers to go Dutch but you insist on paying the bill because you are either a gentleman or, perhaps, you think she will pay for the next one. But she…
July 29th, 2006 at 6:12 am
This is just an ugly outgrowth of the commonly accepted relationship model:boy meets girl, boy buys girl. First, you pay for dinners. Then, you shell out for a big rock, which the woman will show off to her friends in demonstration of her market value. I’ll bet that if his date had slept with him after that dinner, the schmuck would have considered the account settled. The saddest part is that after being publicly lambasted for his caddish behavior, our hero will still find women to date him - either because they are naive and haven’t googled his name before accepting a date, or because they have no self esteem, or because they are greedy-the guy has a well-paying job, and the dinner contribution now can be offset by alimony payments later.
July 29th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
DAN, Thank G-d for men like you!
You have a great attitude…and obviously as lot of class! PLEASE stay the way you are…a masculine, secure, chivalrous man with a generous spirit! There are many women who would jump at the chance to date a man with your healthy perspective. Any chance you live in the Midwest?
SARAH, thanks for sharing the titles of the two books on Etiquette…apparently, no one writing in this blog seems to be reading them!
What’s strange is that in the large Metropolitan Midwest city where I live, I do not even know ONE woman who wants to split the bill! No one is saying a woman should just take from a man and not ever give back…but so many of you are hung up on paying your “half.” Romance and true love are just NOT measured in calculations. ANd why do so many of you think you have to “buy” your equality?
On every date I have ever been on, we have both treated each others as “equal,” regardless of who is paying!
TO THE WOMEN WHO DO NOT ALLOW A MAN TO PAY FOR YOU, you are not only confusing men as to their roles in dating, but do you seriously think you cannot reciprocate a man’s generosity in other ways other than pulling your wallet out at the table? Why can’t you buy him tickets to a great sporting event or music concert, cook him a fantastic meal, bake him his favorite dessert, surprise him with thoughtful gifts indicative of his tastes (CDs, clothing, cologne, books, cigars, scotch, etc.), even pre-pay the meal by slipping your credit card to the hostess at the hostess stand prior to the meal, etc.?
To me, it’s so much more tasteful.
If and when you do these things for a man (which I do all of the time), do you seriously ask for half the price of that thoughtful gesture? I wouldn’t dream of it…ever! It is MY PLEASURE to spoil my man…I am not looking to go halfsies in the ways I try and be thoughtful and generous. THEN, it’s no longer thoughtful and generous; it’s CHEAP and tacky!
Just like the MALE author of He’s Just Not That Into You says: “Many of you women are making men lazy…” Some of your attitiudes about not wanting to be courted or treated like a lady are what create the Darrens of the world who think he should be “reimbursed” by his DATE. Dating IS NOT a business transaction; it’s about finding true love!
July 29th, 2006 at 12:19 pm
It’s simply irrational to say that insisting that the man always pay doesn’t commodify women. If you like to feel like a commodity, and I think some women actually do, that’s your privilege, I suppose, but many women today prefer to feel like independent, competent adults. It reminds me of an old Doonesbury, where Boopsie, in response to Joanie Caucus’s attempts to raise her consciousness, replies, “Exploited? Ooh, that sounds sexy. Where do I go to be exploited?”
The person who invites should pay. Now, if the man demurs and insists on paying, that might make a good impression on me, but the impression would be that he’s a generous person, not that he’s aware of his obligations as a penis-owner. However, if he continues to insist on paying, if he seems horrified by the idea that I might pay the check, it’s pretty clear that we’re not good prospects for each other, because at that point it’s about his Masculinity (TM), and if that’s on the line over a restaurant check, the situation has nowhere to go but down.
July 29th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
One last anecdote…true story!
My nephew, who is age 12, an excellent student, an avid swimmer and sooo sweeet, recently took his “girlfriend” out on a “date.” They went to lunch, a movie that he let her choose, and miniature golfing all in the in the same day. When I asked,”Who Paid?” he responded, “I did, of course.” I asked,” “Where did you get the money?” And he said, “I saved it up.” (apparently from allowances and birthday gifts, etc.) Obviously, he felt the enjoyable experience he had with her was well worth whatever it cost him. And, thus, the focus was on their time together
and not the money. So, in the end, I guess it really comes down to values and how one is raised…at least there will be one chivalrous man left in 2016!
July 30th, 2006 at 9:33 am
Welcome to the world of internet dating…
So, I am one of these people who enjoy reading the blog of Peter Shankman, who is a rather handsome man, CEO of the Geekfactory… he does, well, he does PR, differently. So, without further adoe, here’s how not to act on a J-date, or is tha
July 30th, 2006 at 2:08 pm
Don’t let my girlfriend read this, she’ll think this my four page invoices and double entry accounting reports to her are not normal.
July 30th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
My Rule of Humans #1 is: “Nobody does anything they don’t want to do, no matter how much they complain about it.”
Darren wanted to take this girl out, he wanted to go to an expensive place.
My Rule of Humans #2 is: “Don’t give anyone anything you aren’t willing to never get back.”
Darren gave the money for her food.
These seem like rather jaded, pessimistic rules, but they’re just basic truths.
On another note: I, too, believe in the “Whomever invites, pays” rule, but it is nice when doing the inviting that you work out what’s happening with the cheque ahead of time.
July 30th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
To the commenters who said that a girl should always tell a guy that she has no intention of going out with him:
Often times a guy’s demeanor makes it obvious that if she doesn’t agree to at least “call him sometimes”, he will make a scene, or at least try and drag out the point, extol his virtues, etc.
Agree to “call him sometime” is just some words to get him off her back for right now. Whether or not she actually calls him again is her business.
July 30th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Unbelievable. Unbelievable that this Darren character would behave in such a way and unbelievable that anyone would support his outlandish behavior. Oh and another plug for the China Grill, LOVE IT, one of my favorite places to dine in Manhattan.
July 31st, 2006 at 7:27 am
Does your CEO blog? (and ech hob dir in drerd)
Oh looky, it’s Monday’s IT Blogwatch, in which we ask, Why don’t more CEOs blog? Not to mention a classic example of why you should never write email or send voicemail that you wouldn’t want blogged — are you listening, Darren Sherman?..
July 31st, 2006 at 1:36 pm
I can’t stand Darren, predominantly because he doesn’t know how and when to use the word ‘whom’ (see his profile).
So we have a badly educated loony, to boot.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:05 pm
This isn’t about someone being cheap. As has been noted, the time Darren (who presumably has a good job) invested is worth far more than $50.
This is about revenge. He is going for distance and irritation. He clearly has some personal issues about rejection, but all this debate about the ethics of finance and dating are missing the mark.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:53 pm
Ok the problem here is that the guy seems to be missing a pair of testicles. It’s kind of hard to date a female when you are neutered. I bet you this guy used to get kiss ass kicked a lot back in school.
And ladies I would just like you all to know that most (heck if not all) men are not like this asshole. Please donât let this douche bad stop you from dating.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:27 pm
i only wish there was a photo to accompany the story!
July 31st, 2006 at 9:55 pm
Nice guy
Maybe he should have taken her for a $5 coffee at starbucks for their first date????
Tal
August 1st, 2006 at 3:57 pm
hahahahahahahahahahaha!
I can’t believe this is real - surely this is one of the most innovative marketing campaigns by China Grill? Surely no-one in the entire World can be THAT much of a c’nt???
Darren - your parents must be soooo proud! You sound like a guy with a seriously strange view on the World - hope that you never change, because every court needs a jester….
David - London
August 1st, 2006 at 5:25 pm
First of all DARREN SHERMAN is a joke. What a crazy freak.
Secondly, I wanted to comment on the drink buying thing. As someone who frequents bars often, I have to say I never thought much about it. But after spending way too much time reading all of these posts, I feel that I can break it down a little:
(1) If a friend buys me a drink (guy or girl) I buy the next round. Unless it is my birthday.
(2) If a guy I am already talking to buys me a drink I accept and gladly continue the conversation. Now I know he is interested and we might flirt, dance, exchange numbers - hey, that is what makes going out fun! And if it was a guy I am not interested in, I do not accept a drink. Of course these people fall into the quasi-friend category, and therefore I actually have some respect for them/care about whether I hurt their feelings.
(3) If a guy is talking to a friend of mine, and he buys us both drinks…hooray for me. The way I see it, there are no obligations on my part other than a thank you.
(4) When some guy I am not already talking to buys me a drink, I do not talk to them unless I want to. If they have an iota of a personality I will talk to them for a while, but I don’t know if you men have any idea the amount creepy a**holes that approach any relatively attractive woman in a night. I do not feel bad about leaving immediately if I get any kind of creepy vibe. I have actually been told by friends (guys and girls) that I am often way too nice to the guys that fall into this category and should cut and run much sooner. I do have to say though, that the guys in this category (i.e., the Shermanator) are the most fun to laugh about later with your friends.
(5) When some guy across the bar buys me a drink…honestly, I had no idea I was even supposed do anything. They are usually by themselves, and I just think they are either losers, or dirty old men with some cash to spare. There is no way I am interrupting whatever conversation I am in to go talk to some weirdo.
There you have it. My own personal bar etiquette code.
August 1st, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Scary story! I couldn’t possibly remark on all of the good and bad comments flowing on this subject and on the subject of the rollercoaster ride known as dating.
I do have to agree though, that the real point is that Darren is a seriously maladjusted individual who may want to consider counseling. If he is this insistent over money spent for a meal, imagine his reaction if she had kissed him good-night and then stepped away!
He may be an annoying, potential receiver of a restraining order now, but what is to stop him from being a convicted rapist in the future?
August 2nd, 2006 at 12:17 am
whether or not it’s true, it’s a funny story none the less!
http://www.snopes.com/love/revenge/paydate.asp
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:15 am
Hey Jane, great bar etiquette code! You’re obviously a woman with class…
August 2nd, 2006 at 2:07 pm
J-dating 50 bucks outta this…
Unlike David and Claire, Darren and Joanne actually went out on a date. The date itself isn’t nearly as entertaining as the aftermath of this… PR. Differently: How Not to Act on J-Date (complete with audio)
August 2nd, 2006 at 6:24 pm
As a single female I’ve always maintained that first dates should be drinks or coffee first so a) if it’s bad you can cut and run and b) you’re not saddled with a long drawn out discomfort if things don’t click, but maybe that’s my UK dating upbringing?
In this North American dating climate, I’ve always offered to pay and most times the men insist on paying. I’m just as happy for someone to suggest something low key - best date I’ve had in a long time involved a blanket, the beach, the sunset and some food (he provided) and wine (I provided)
A date is not a business, despite it seemingly to be for others such as JD’s most eligible batchelor, Mr Sherman.
August 2nd, 2006 at 6:25 pm
Not for nothing, but this is why people should use AirTroductions (www.airtroductions.com) It’s a flight. You meet at the gate. Don’t like each other? Don’t change your seat.
August 2nd, 2006 at 7:18 pm
I had a very similar thing happen to me. I went on an internet date with a guy, the bill comes, he tells me how much my “portion” is, and we both put down credit cards (I decided within the first 5 seconds of the date I never wanted to see this guy again, so I didn’t mind paying, but it was tacky). Apparently, though, the restaurant charged his card twice, and mine not at all. Neither of us noticed this at the time. He called me for another date a few days later, I never returned the call. About two weeks later, I get this email at my work email account (even though we had been communicating through my yahoo account):
I just had a conversation with the people at Sushi Mon, and they wanted me
to contact you with regard to the following. As you know, we had a sushi
dinner at Sushi Mon on Friday, August 9th, agreed to split the total cost
between us, and then each of us provided the waitress with a credit card.
My credit card was charged separately for both your portion and my portion
of the total cost. It appears that the waitress provided you with a receipt
(for your portion) containing my name and my credit card information, and
you signed this receipt. Believing that you signed this receipt mistakenly,
the people at Sushi Mon would like to give you an opportunity to make
payment for your portion and have asked me to contact you for that reason.
If you could please let me know at your earliest convenience what I should
tell Sushi Mon, as well as the other parties involved, we would appreciate
it. Thank you very much.
What a creep!
August 3rd, 2006 at 11:54 am
My coworker told me about this issue after hearing about it on the Bert Show in Atlanta. Yes this story is making the rounds for sure. Darren is being a complete idiot. She said “I will call”, she never said WHEN SHE WOULD CALL. Since when is there a rule you call by a certain day? Obviously she has a life, and Darren is making himself look stupid. He needs to simply chalk it up and go about his life. The way he is acting it will be a good while before he gets a date on J-Date again, because he seems very looney.
He is harrassing her. Calling her employer? Like they can do anything. He is so far out of line!!
August 3rd, 2006 at 3:18 pm
They should put this guy on Dr. Phil. Maybe the good doctor can help this guy pull his head out of his a**. He obviously needs some attitude adjustments and a lesson in relationships/dating.
Plus it would be super funny to see this guy thrust into the National soptlight for simply being a jerk!
And it would teach a lesson to all the other potential creeps out there, any guy with common sense knows you pay for the first date regardless. It’s called manners!
August 3rd, 2006 at 7:18 pm
I REALLY want to know this guy’s company name. What an ass.
August 3rd, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Heard this on the radio station Q100 in Atlanta this morning and could not believe it. What’s with the guy?
August 3rd, 2006 at 10:11 pm
Thanks for the giggle. Many of us have been on the receiving end, but few to this magnitude.
instead of J-Date.
I think I shall stick with match.com
-J
August 4th, 2006 at 9:19 am
I’m in Atlanta too and they’re talking about it as I type this. I’m speechless…no wonder this wonderful “CEO” is still single!
August 4th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
Apparently, for a CEO, he must not make that much money. Haha, this is hillarious.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
She should have initiated legal proceedings for stalking. Maybe it is not too late yet to do so.
August 6th, 2006 at 8:39 pm
I saw this story on the national news tonight! Back in college, I had a boyfriend who took me to the Taco Bell drive-thru and said “Don’t get too much.” So I don’t doubt for one minute that there’s a schmuck like Darren Sherman wandering around. He reminds me of that evil paperboy in the movie Better Off Dead who kept hassling John Cusack: “I want my $2!”
August 7th, 2006 at 4:31 am
What a freaking loser this guy is. I mean she offers to pay for her share of the date, he declines and pays for it and then he demands payment only after she doesn’t call back after a certain amount of time? I’m not exactly someone that’s going to be mistaken for a legal expert but I can tell you that if the woman offers to go dutch and you decline and pay for it yourself that at that point it is a gift to the woman and under no circumstances are you entitled to that money back. Of all people that should have known this it was him because he works in a position that would require a business degree and one of the classes you have to take to get one is Business Law which would have taught him that exact thing. I think J-Date was too easy on him by merely suspending him from the site instead of booting him completely. I’m curious about whether or not he was able to keep his job after this got out. Does anyone know if he got fired or not?
August 7th, 2006 at 9:42 am
Has he called the women he dated in high and asked to be reimbursed for those dates too? What a loser!
August 7th, 2006 at 11:34 am
By Darren’s rationale, I should calculate how much money I spent for a first date (new shirt, new lipstick?) and if he says “I’ll call” and never does, he has to pay me half… have I got that right?
August 7th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
There’s a lot of crap on here about dating rituals and stuff like that. Its a load of rubbish, there’s no rituals just be yourself.
As a bloke, I always offer to pay the full bill, however, it is generally the self respecting women who insist on paying half. Similarly, nicer, self respecting women would generally decline a drink at the bar if they were not interested. There is no right or wring as to who pays the bill and should or should not offer to pay half … but it does day a lot about your character/personality if you go for meals and don’t even offer to pay half then never call them back … similarly if you accept a drink and then just walk off and don’t even stay around for a chat. If this happenned to me I’d be thinking ‘good riddance to money grabbing trash.’ But you know girls … if thats the way you want to behave knock yourself out.
Finally … the whole thing about men paying for dates goes back to the time when women didn’t work … they stayed at home and didn’t earn a wage to pay their own way through dating!
August 7th, 2006 at 8:09 pm
I reckon this guy isn’t gonna be able to date anywhere! This is being spread around England! lol.
P.S This guys a total jerk and deserves not to date ever.
August 7th, 2006 at 8:33 pm
Whether this is an urban legend or not is irrelevant. I’ve met people like this, and so has my sister. In fact, one jerk tried to make her pay for an egg cream at a diner, for about $1.75. I’ve also met one guy who called me ELEVEN times. Ummm, pride? You got blown off. Deal with it. I agree with whoever it was who said this fellow just wanted the woman’s attention. He was going to keep reminding her of his presence until she not only acknowledged it, but paid financially for the privilege. Also, threatening to call someone’s employer is ludicrous, unless someone is stalking you using their company e-mail or phone line to do it. It’s the “grown-up” version of “I’m telling on you,” but in the adult world, there’s no one to mete out punishment. Anyway, that guy (or the collective he represents if he’s an urban legend), is a tool. I’m only surprised he doesn’t live in Washington, DC. Men like that are a dime a dozen here.
August 8th, 2006 at 9:07 am
What a Slug!!
August 8th, 2006 at 11:11 am
I would have been much appreciated if you would have provided Mr. Darren L. Shermanâs address and phone number. I spent an entire 15 minutes to read this story, wait for the WAV downloads and wiping the tears from my eyes laughing at the stupidity and insanity of Mr. Sherman. Therefore, based upon my hourly rate that I bill clients, I figure Mr. Sherman owes me $50â¦after all, it was his voluntary actions that created this story and therefore it is only reasonable and appropriate that Darrn Sherman does the right thing and pay the money.
August 8th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Darren is worse than a schlemiel (which just means a foolish, clumsy person): based on his behavior, I’d say that the best Yiddish word for him is “schmuck”.
August 8th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
yes, he’s an idiot. However, this is why women’s lib died out. Someone commented that the man is to be the “provider.” In today’s world we all work hard. Why do the men still pay and ask for the date. When I was single (27 yrs ago) the girls started to call the guys but it’s still thought to be wrong generally. So really nothing’s changed. If the men sleep with the women they get the high-fives and the girl is EZ (put nicely.) he obviously has issues.
August 8th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
Darren Sherman, CEO of Regulatory Advisory Services (a private financial consulting firm in New York) and former SEC official.
August 8th, 2006 at 10:38 pm
There are schmoks and there are schmoks with earflaps. Darren establishes a new catagory altogether. His nickname must be Crumley, and his executive skill must be limited to streaking boogers under other people’s desks. At least we now have an antonym for mensch - Darren the Crumb. If you have the courage — and you don’t have to be Jewish — feel free to check out my web site at http://www.squarf.com
August 8th, 2006 at 11:09 pm
1. Has anyone thought about how this thing started initially with “J-date”? What the hell is a “J-date”?They both deserve the aftermath for even signing up for a “J-date”.Dum-asses
2. Why would any man turn down going dutch on a date? These women want to be independent so let’em be just that. If you want to be old fashioned then open the door for her, let her pay for hers, you pay for yours, and to show your appreciation by her a drink. If she’s really cool then she’ll go round for round. Now that’s what I call dutch.
3. Why do you feel the need to be fancy on the 1st date? You should be original. Put yourself in a situation that forces you to talk.Do you want to get to know somebody or just see if they have table manners? Can’t talk with your mouth full. Can’t enjoy food if you’re talking. Get snacks along the way if you have to, but there should never be a quiet moment(unless your tongue is down her throat). And I don’t mean tell her your life storey either jack ass. Just enough so she knows she wants to see you again.
4. Are jews really like this?I hope not. Haven’t met too many.
5. Who talked this guy into seeking date reparations in the 1st place? You should be the 1 to really get kicked square in the ass for talking this idiot into leaving those bitch-ass voice-mails.
6. Hey girl,you aint innocent either. Are you so much of a better person that you had to make this guy a bigger ass as he has already proven himself to be by putting it out for the world to see? At the rate he was going he would’ve did that himself.He didn’t need your help.Now you wonder why they call you bitch?
*To all ladies, if you not really feeling somebody like that then let’em know. You knew within 5 minutes whether or not some guy has a chance. “I was going to call you back” my ass.
*To all the men, learn how to read body language.If she aint feeling you ,she aint feeling you. Keep it moving. Like we use to say “mess’n around on the fo’sho girls, look’n fo’mo girls, end up with no girls” (PG version, but you get the point)
If you can’t figure out where I’m coming from then you never will.
August 9th, 2006 at 11:06 am
OK let’s be real for a second. This guy Darren Sherman. I can understand how he feels. His behavior was completely over the top, but essentially he felt “taken advantage of”. The big problem however is that Darren had some very skewed views of how the dating game is played. In his reality, this heartless woman played him, and took his money. In the real world though, it’s a little different. Here are the real rules.
1. He didn’t have to take her to that restaurant. In fact, he didn’t have to spend a dime. There are so many things you can do on a date for little or no money (especially if you have as big an issue with money as he does), and it was up to HIM to decide what the activity would be.
2. Dating is a gamble, and you never gamble more than you’re tolerant of losing. Period. He may as well go to vegas and harass a casino for a slot machine that didn’t pay out. Hold on, he just might go do that!
3. Taking her on a first date to an impressive restaurant wasn’t a good move at all. Besides the factor of potentially losing more than he was tolerant of (and he lost a LOT more, now that he’s infamous!), the first date should have been more about getting to know him (and her) than “impressing” her. I don’t get the whole deal about trying to “impress” someone on a date. If she can’t be impressed with me being me, I don’t need her. Eventually, that’s what it will come down to anyway!
4. On a tangent, buying a woman a drink in a bar does not “entitle” a guy to ANYTHING (and yes, I am a single guy saying this). Nothing. Zip. Personally, I think it’s idiotic, and wimpy. You like a woman? Walk up to her and say “hi”. Start a conversation, with no obligations, no bribes, no preconceived anything, just two people talking. From my experience, women appreciate that a lot more. If you’re at all funny, or interesting, and your breath smells good, you have a much better chance than with the anonymous vodka tonic. I had an experience where a woman tried to get me to buy her a drink, and I laughed, and said she should buy me one, that I was thirsty. We had a good laugh over it, and a good conversation. Then she goes and gets some other guys to buy her drinks all night, each time, coming back after a 2 minute conversation with them to talk to me for hours, laugh(mostly at the dudes buying her drinks) and have a ball. Now which was more valuable, the free drinks, or the feeling she got from a great conversation?
August 9th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
Wow, someone was telling me this story and I figured it had to be an urban legend. But no.
I’ll wager $50 Darren dies alone.
August 9th, 2006 at 9:32 pm
Besides the fact that I know the girl who wrote this, you all are missing the point. It’s not about the drink or the money. This guy has serious problems. As much as this is hilarious (and it is) she was scared for a while. Think about the fact that this date was about to call her employer. Not only is that embaresssing as ALL hell, a date doesn’t mean that the other person has the right to harrass you. what if she didn’t call him because someone died and she had to travel to the funeral. Would he still have this right to harrass her because he paid for a meal? Look at the BIG picture here. As much as this guy makes me laugh NOW, we weren’t laughing when we first heard the messages.
August 10th, 2006 at 6:50 am
First, I consider it unlikely that after two and a half weeks she was going to call him, but think it a passable strategy to put him on the defensive. He’s clearly hurt and very insecure, and amazingly out of line, but that he should die alone or never have a date again? Maybe if he hits it off with someone he’ll feel more secure and be more respectful? While the work thing is creepy, at least it’s a non-personally threatening way of over-reacting in an immature and inappropriate way versus a potentially more threatening technique like standing on the doorstep. All in all, get him away, but don’t throw him away. He needs help and understanding, unlike some terrorist organizations.
Unless, of course, he’s a member of one of those terrorist organizations and this is an attack, in which case I say we pistol-whip the mother!
August 10th, 2006 at 9:06 am
WOW - LOL - I am SWGF 32 and would give $50’s to have a change to meet this guy and mess with him. Not in a bad way - just to be able to put him back on his heels.
August 10th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
First I want to be clear… This guy is an ass. that should go without saying, but it seems that this whole thing has started a line of interesting comments that do disserve some conversation.
The topic has seemed to shifted to something that is only loosely connected… Which is payment, for drinks, dates, etc….
As I see it, it boils down pretty easy…. are you cheap, or are you spoiled?
So to define cheap- A person who is unwilling to spend his / her hard earned money on another person then you are CHEAP! Just except it. It doesn’t matter what gender you are.
To define spoiled- A person who doesn’t appreciate a person spending their hard earned money on them is SPOILED! Just except it. This also doesn’t matter what gender you are.
If either of these two definitions fit you …. Don’t call me!
I may not be the richest guy on J date, but I still manage to pay for ALL my first dates. Even the ones I don’t think will go any further. In my case it was just the way I was raised.
The point is that guys are not just courting girls. It is both of us courting each other, and though there may be a few things that have become rituals over time (guys paying for first dates) it doesn’t mean that both parties shouldn’t be putting their best foot forward, and trying to make the other person feel comfortable.
In the case of drinks… You know a guy is trying to court you with the offer, so if you are not willing to court back just say no thanks. If a guy is a prick won’t take no for an answer, or gets rude in any way … then waste his money by all means.
Basically, if either person isn’t comfortable in the end then it is over no matter what, so you both have to try, and if you don’t want to try then don’t go out and waste someone else’s time and money. It really is that simple.
It also should be well known and excepted that if you don’t feel a connection it is still possible the other person does and you should be respectful of that, and not be rude in any way. If anything you should be flattered, even if you are not excited.
I have gone out with girls who think they are entitled to things, and are not appreciative. They never get more then one date with me. I may pay for them once but it will not happen again. I also find that it is those same girls who are constantly complaining that there are no good guys out there. Interesting enough they usually call me several times asking why I don’t want to go out again and I should refer them to the Spoiled definition above. All I ask for is some common courtesy in return (and I can tells some horror stories).
A good guy or girl wants someone to court them as much as they want to court the other person. As they deserve.
I can promise you there are good guys, and good girls out there, but deep down they know they are good people and will not let anyone walk all over them.
Now let me get back to my J-date … I think I got another letter.
August 10th, 2006 at 11:50 pm
oh lordy…
August 11th, 2006 at 1:03 am
I’ve read the comments and have nothing to add- just a question for the owner of this blog: Can I link this? Seriously, that is the most hysterically tacky thing I’ve read … since I can remember. My husband and I had a really good laugh over it.
PS. My husband paid for our first date. I bought the drinks. We lived happily ever after and never fight about money, because our mothers taught us to SHARE. The End.
August 11th, 2006 at 1:37 am
I for one admire Darren’s huge balls and found his brand of phone-comedy very entertaining.
All those who comment stuff like “Call me old fashioned, but the guy should pay for everything” I say, “Call me old fashioned, men should be paid more than women.”
Oh wait- WAIT. You mean times have changed since 1809? Well, if both genders have the same $ coming in, shouldn’t they have the same $ going out when dating? If not, why not?
Well anyway, I was very amused by this whole thing…. As much by the blogger’s overreaction (”I wish I had keys big enough to type WTF” blah blah) and the over-the-top “the horror, the horror” comments as I was by the totally clueless guy leaving the messages.
Oh, and that the audio files were WAVs. I found that amusing as well. Was .au unavailable?
August 11th, 2006 at 2:05 am
Natronic-
Your comments are so rude and ignorant. You clearly have no respect for women or people of different religions and what’s more, you might want to purchase an etiquette book, because “old fashioned” as you called it, otherwise referred to as “traditional” (which women call “chivalrous”) DOES NOT mean going Dutch.
To the many men who are looking
for their date to pay:
I AM TRULY CURIOUS…HOW OLD ARE YOU? AND IN WHAT CITIES DO YOU RESIDE? I am guessing you must be on the young side just starting out…?
I have honestly dated 100’s of men and I have NEVER ONCE been asked to pay for half of the bill.
Curious…why don’t you believe in “courtship” or dating? What keeps you from WANTING to treat a woman? Is it that you cannot afford to date? And why, if you call a woman and invite her out, do you think she should pay? You really need to read the etiquette books.
If, for example, a woman got tickets to a baseball game or concert, do you really think she should ask you to reimburse her?
And, if she makes you dinner and spends $200.00, do you put a $100.00 bill on the kitchen counter? I wouldn’t dare ask, expect or accept money from my date if I invited him out or cooked him a beautiful dinner chez moi…how CHEAP and TACKY.
PLEASE help me understand…at what point, if any, would you men feel comfortable courting a woman? Is there any time you think it is appropriate to act chivalrous and pay for your “date?” Or are you all just looking for female friends?
All i can say is being CHEAP, FRUGAL, TIGHT WITH MONEY is NOT an attractive quality to any woman with a generous spirit…Don’t forget…like attracts like…perhaps that explains why the men with whom I keep company would never dream of going Dutch…
We mutually take care of each other in all sorts of ways, but there’s not a calculator in sight…
August 11th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
Hey. I’m actually not surprised. I also went on a date with a guy from JDate who changed his mind about the coffee and decided to make it a movie night.
So, I rock up and he strung two friends along (a couple) and wanted to know if we could go Dutch on the movie!
F*ck That!
August 11th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
I’ve got to agree with some of the others. While what Darren did was inexcusable, did that give Joanne the right to post his voicemails and emails on the web with his name, number and addresses to try to ruin his life?
I don’t know either of them, but it sounds like they’re two of a kind.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
That’s what you get for going out on a Jdate!Another clever story to make money.People, wake up!
August 12th, 2006 at 12:02 am
Marcy rocks
August 12th, 2006 at 10:23 am
JSW from Atlanta-
You are pure class…I agree with your every word! What’s your handle on J?
August 12th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
Peter, I think you bought when we went out…well it wasn’t really a date but it was fun. This is great! miss you and miss the hood ~ Tery Spataro
August 13th, 2006 at 5:54 am
I wish Darren was unique but the original story people refer to from Snopes is actually true. I know the girl in question; she sent the email letter from the guy she had met on J-date where he demanded to be reimbursed for half the dinner bill to ten girlfriends (I got it that day) as a bemused “warning”, but it was quickly distributed beyond her circle. She had also intended to return this guy’s calls, but wasn’t quick enough for his liking before he sent her the “bill”!
It’s incredible to me that men like Darren and Andrew exist. They clearly lack manners, social boundaries and appear to have been raised in some wilderness where the women in their lives were not respected or cherished (so much for the dominant Jewish mother stereotype). They also seem to be incredibly bitter. And then they wonder why they are single?! How do they survive in the world outside of romantic relationships with this kind of attitude and conduct?
August 13th, 2006 at 5:57 am
I was also reading the posts here about whether men or women should pay etc., and wanted to comment.
Maybe there are some women who need or expect a man to spend a lot of money on them, but for most women I know a man treating us to dinner or drinks on the date he initiated is a sign of respect, courtesy and graciousness. In my opinion a man who is cheap on little things will invariably be cheap in other ways (especially emotionally), and his miserly attitude will permeate all aspects of his life. This is not attractive in the least. Who wants to spend even an hour or two with someone like this, much less your life?
Two examples of what not to do on a date with a woman: I once went to the movies on a double date with a friend. Her date had exhibited some “cheapish” behaviour all night - he ran past the concession stand when we entered the movie theater (my friend had paid for the movie tickets and her date had paid for a casual dinner earlier, but popcorn was obviously not in his budget or, more accurately, he seemed to fear that he may be asked to buy the popcorn), he had visibly blanched when he thought she may order dessert at dinner (she didn’t) and he sent her home on the bus cross-town at midnight, although she had travelled to his neighborhood for the date. All this was not necessarily admirable, but the real kicker was when he offered her half a stick of gum even though he still had several sticks left in the packet. I guess my friend was not “whole stick of gum”-worthy.
Then there was my second date with a man which consisted of a walk in the park on a summer’s day (the first date had been a coffee date, and he had done the asking out for both). I have no objection to this activity; I’m just making the point that he wasn’t spending a fortune here to begin with. It was hot and we were buying two bottles of water at a total cost of $2.20. He took out $1. Even the Korean deli owner seemed confused (and you should have seen my “WTF” look as I paid the $1.20!). That’s not just cheap; it’s shows a lack of generosity of spirit, lack of nurturing and certainly did not make me feel particularly special (and he asked me out again…Guess what my answer was?).
I can afford to buy my own water (and more) but I start to think what if we got married, had children and I wasn’t employed for some reason and had to rely on his income? What kind of person would this be and how would he treat me and our family? I don’t think this is a simplistic attitude or that I’m over-analysing things.
I have met many wonderful, generous men, too, so I know they are out there. But since I have recently returned to the single world after a long relationship - and have just joined J-Date (yikes!) - considering the kind of creeps that still seem to be circulating out there, especially after reading the Darren & Joanne saga and some comments from people in these posts, I’m definitely wary!
August 17th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Maybe I’m of the old school, married for 39 years. The company I work for has two offices in two different states. When I’m at one of them during the lunch hour I’ll at times invite the secretary where I’m at out for lunch. I don’t expect her to pay, or pay her half. I did the inviting and she’s my guest.
The same when I was dating, I never expected a date to pay her share when I asked her out whether for dinner, a movie or other event.
August 18th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Um, for those women out there who want to be “equals”…Since when are men our “equals,” anyway?
If you keep insisting on jumping down from the pedestal, don’t be shocked when he stops trying to put you up on it.
I think there’s a massive misunderstanding in our culture anymore. Marriage isn’t a contract wherein each partner has identical responsibilities. It’s more like a symbiosis. Take my marriage: he goes out and works 9-10 hours a day to support me. He supports me, get it? I reciprocate by keeping his house clean and making food he likes (which is most of what I make), all of which takes MAYBE 4 hours. Then I tell him he needs to mow the lawn or fix something or take out the trash, which he does because that’s “man’s work”. It’s beneath me, of course.
Oh, occasionally I’ll interpret a legal document for him or draw up a contract or something (oh, yes, did I mention I’m a licensed attorney? No uneducated houseslave here), but mostly I act as the pit crew for him. Everyone in the Rat Race should have a good pit crew.
Because I love him and he works so hard for the money, I try to save as much as I can. Because he loves me and I work so hard for him, he sometimes rubs my feet or invites me out to dinner, or any of a thousand little things he does to prove it.
You know, the question of being equal never even comes up between us. I’m his enthroned queen and he’s the best thing ever. I guess we’re too busy loving each other more than ourselves to worry about paltry things like “equal work for equal pay.” Despite what he thinks, I got the best of the bargain–and all by letting him be the man here.
Loren, you’re awesome. It’s refreshing to see another professional lady take this attitude. Maybe the world will see that chivalry is not just a fairy tale for the undereducated…
August 22nd, 2006 at 8:11 am
This story has been going around under different names for a while.
I saw it on Snopes quite a while ago.
http://www.snopes.com/love/revenge/paydate.asp
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:23 pm
I have to put in a plug for Saigon Grill on University and 12th–they have a hot and sour soup that curls my toes.
August 23rd, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Actually Heather, if you read that entire article on snopes, they suggest the possibility that this Darrin guy copied the hoax/joke that has been going around awhile but in real life. Either way…it got me to thinking. What a beautifully orchestrated PR stunt this could be. I mean, after all, we ARE on prdifferently.com, right? And the story has been linked to gossip blogs all over the web. It would be pretty simple for someone to have a friend with a bit of acting talent leave some “voice-mails” and copy them as wav files. Not a bad way to get some publicity for your PR firm at all!
August 25th, 2006 at 12:48 am
Thanks, Fearless Minky!
Loved your pedestal comment…those women who don’t like it up there are ruining it for the rest of us! (Not to mention, I am happy to put my man on one, too…just in a different way!)
Can you imagine saying to your husband, “Oh, honey, don’t treat me special or do anything for me, because I just want to be your “equal” and then I won’t do anything for you either, so we can both be “equally” bad partners?” What a joke! What the heck is wrong with these people?!
No courtship, no dates, no male vs. female roles…are you kidding?
Equal-Rights-To-A-Fault Ladies and Passive Men looking for Mothering Partners,
pleeeeeease read the books, Getting to I Do, He’s Just Not That Into You and Catch Him and Keep Him…ALL 3 books talk about COURTSHIP of the woman BY THE MAN…ALL 3 books are current and the last two are written by MEN! You are living in America, NOT TransAmerica…If you want to be an androgynous he/she (or tranny), seriously that is fine, but you’ve gotta move out of the mainstream dating scene to a tranny scene cause’ you are confusing the mainstream men on how to date and hurting the mainstream women out there in America who ENJOY being treated special…
Like MINKY says, it’s about teamwork, and knowing your ROLES (which are NOT exactly the same)…too many people on here are just all about themselves…no concept of partership or intererdependence…
Unfortunately, what you are all missing is here, which is CRITICAL, is that wall you put up (to divide everything down the middle) is the wall that breaks you down!
August 25th, 2006 at 11:17 pm
All I could think about when I read this story and listened to this schmekelstein’s voicemails is how horrible it would be to be in divorce court with him!
I don’t envy the girl who settles for this guy!
August 28th, 2006 at 2:58 am
Summer’s Almost Over, But You Can Still Crap on Beach-Goers
Well, this is it. The last week of the traditional summer season. Time for beach chairs and the Red Sux to fold up for the year. But before we bid adieu to Summer 2006 let’s hit the sand one…
August 29th, 2006 at 9:27 am
Spot on Heather - this smells like a PR stunt that’s taken off big time.
August 30th, 2006 at 11:57 am
The PR angle?
The last wav includes the restaurant’s phone number, and is the only audio that endlessly repeats.
August 31st, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Everyone on this post is missing the point.
This is a matter of principle, not mere meaningless dollar amount. Yes we’ve all been in the situation of going out with someone who didn’t return our call but I firmly believe the woman is at fault for not coughing over the $50, and somewhat took advantage of him (knowing she wouldn’t call). Do you really want to go to court with someone over $50? What type of class does the girl have in The point is this gentleman Darren is headstrong, and you don’t want to push around someone who’s headstrong, lets face it most guys would let this go and forget all about it and move onto the next JDate date but I like Darren’s persistence, he won’t give up in the face of utter embarassment. He’s gone far enough to send multiple emails, voicemails (to work even), calling China grill etc., and think he won’t stop until he gets that $50. Maybe that is why he is a CEO, and a former SEC official and the rest of you are complete scrubs living with your parents, or crampy lower east side apartments. Holler at your boy, na mean?
September 5th, 2006 at 6:06 pm
You read the words, you laughed at me. I have written down all your names - consider yourselves served with summons. Email your payment to me immeidately. Do the right thing.
Sincerely,
Darren Sherman
P.S. Feel free to leave your phone number if you are free for dinner this weekend.
September 7th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
Now For Something Completely Different…
Words fail me. Meryl pointed me to it and Lynn B added a follow up in the comments to this site with a more complete account. Go listen and read for yourself and observe a man self-immolate on the web….
September 9th, 2006 at 12:11 am
Better Than an Urban Legend
So I was reading Ocean Guy: Somewhere on AIA because he showed a link to my page and I saw a cryptic reference to a dating story that might have been inspired by an Urban Legend. So I went to the story How Not to Act on a JDate. (JDate for those like…
September 11th, 2006 at 9:17 am
It seems as if there is an anti-semitic undertone from many of you people commenting on here. This Darren guy is a jerk but strange how J-date ends up with a story about a guy being cheap. Doesn’t this happen on Match or any of the other websites?
October 7th, 2006 at 10:55 am
OH Geez don’t turn this thing into some ehtnic prejudice issue. This is the one that got PRESS. I am the first one to see that sort of thing and this is just what it is. Pathetic yet hilarous. Oh and they are right- there are plenty of folks out there like that.
October 11th, 2006 at 8:48 pm
it’s jews like that who give us a bad name.
October 12th, 2006 at 6:05 am
I can’t wait to see this on Judge Judy!!
October 13th, 2006 at 7:27 am
Dude, that story is awesome. Half of our office were rofl’ing for a damn hour!
October 13th, 2006 at 9:55 am
Jeez…it it 2006 lady, pay your 50 bucks and quit whining.
October 13th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Oh my GOD, what a fucking pig. She OFFERED to pay her half, and he declined–until she decided she’d rather not see him again. THEN he’s all, “O HAY THAR U HOR PAY :D”
“People” like this should be shot.
October 14th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
Traditional, chivalrous courtship also meant that if the man got the woman’s father’s consent to the marriage, then the marriage was on, whether she liked it or not. The rest of her life was then devoted to bearing and rearing the man’s children, and cleaning the house whether she liked it or not. Women were chattel. If they worked, they got paid less because the man was supposed to be the bread-winner.
Like most men, I’m really tired of women who think they can cherry-pick the benefits of both tradition and modernity. The ones like Loren, who have silly rationalizations for this attitude, are maybe more annoying than the ones scamming drinks, who at least know their behavior is substandard.
Nowadays courtship is a two-way street, and it’s not about the money. It’s about effort and showing interest. Loren’s notion that the guy should pick up the checks for 3+ dates before she reciprocates in any way — well, I’m just glad she lives someplace I don’t. Here in S.F. women tend to have a more enlightened perspective (cf. Marcy).
October 17th, 2006 at 4:10 am
Am I the only one here who is aware that “mentch” is a kind of man? A good, upstanding man, but still.
Also, creepy.
I can’t help but wonder what happens if the other women he tries dating google him…
October 17th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
Any updates on Darren?
October 17th, 2006 at 9:06 pm
Guys, Where is the Shermanator now? I need an update.
October 19th, 2006 at 9:45 am
what’s the Update?
http://soo.in/3727/
October 20th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
I’ve often wondered if Darren was real. I can tell you that after he reached out threatening to SUE ME FOR POSTING THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE, that he is quite real.
Go to the main page of PR Differently, and scroll to this one:
http://prdifferently.typepad.c.....rman_.html
And see the latest on Darren.
Thanks for all the comments!!
October 20th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
okay if a guy buys me a drink or dinner, I have to go out on a second date with him.
also if I give him oral sex, he needs to buy me a townhouse preferably on the UES.
see where the quid pro quo thinking gets us?
in lulu land.
Look Darren went entirely too far (threatening to call her employer and shame her at work, calling China Grill) and men should not be making excuses for such lousy behavior.
I hope any man who thinks Darren was right to hound Joanne for $50 (for a dinner he offered to pay for) doesn’t ever have a daughter one day.
Also, did J Date talk to this guy about dating etiquette?
October 21st, 2006 at 8:47 pm
All I can say is, I fell out of my chair laughing when I saw this blog. The reason being, a few of this found this site after we had a Darren experience of our own which resulted in us doing a background check. Darren changed his last name to Kamowitz or something like that. He was recently fired as consultant for a company DC because he was supposedly remitting confidential information to outside sources and because he was caught billing for hours he didn’t work. Supposedly he authors books about financial institutions, though I suspect he lied about that. He also said he drive s Ferrari which he bought from the proceeds of his book sales. The guy is a loon. He was fired from his government job for looking at porn on the net. His company is a joke. He just started his own company. I don’t believe he has any employees or anything. My only regret is not seeing this blog when he still worked here! That would have been hilarious!! A few of us going to order the t-shirt, its become the new slogan for our department
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:44 pm
If a woman weren’t a lesbian before this encounter, it sure would be enough to change her mind. What an f–ing freak. I’m mortified that he’s Jewish. Yet another jackass setting up reasons for people to believe stereotypes.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
I am a man and i always pay. Its just how i was brought up. This guys is a total loser. Does anyone know his company website? this is something i would like to see. Seems like he is a total srewup anyways.
October 31st, 2006 at 6:12 am
Is it just me or does this guy sound like Peter Griffin from Family Guy?
October 31st, 2006 at 7:53 pm
Someone should send this to his mother, because she definitely needs to put her foot up his a**.
November 4th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Well, pathetic as it may be, my brother sent me a link to this site because he knows that I use JDate myself. So, why was I laughing so hard that I nearly peed on myself? I WENT OUT WITH THIS GUY but he never asked me for the money back when we never made it to a second date. FRICKING HYSTERICAL!
November 6th, 2006 at 8:22 pm
How do we know that this chick isn’t lying her ass off? Sure, she’s provided several clips which supposedly prove her story but really they don’t prove a thing. They certainly don’t prove that she offered to ‘go dutch’ on the bill.
We’ve only heard her side of the story. It might be a complete fabrication or, at best, an exaggeration.
November 28th, 2006 at 5:36 pm
This story is hysterical! I’ve been on
Jdate for two years and my dates for the
most part have been very disappointing!
There are a lot of very cheap men out there. If a man invites you to dinner then he should pay! Man up! If you can’t afford to date, stay home. What a loser!
December 13th, 2006 at 6:19 am
Hey …hold up!!
Whats wrong with Darren demanding his money back!! Its easy to be to think that he does not have the right to demand his money back …but think again. If Joanne had been a reasonable & unselfish person she would have sent Darren an email accepting to refund him. I think a decent person would do that, clearly Joanne has no class (and nor does Darren to that extent).
JOANNE IS SIMPLY HIDING BEHIND THE “MAN IS UNEQUAL TO WOMAN WHEN IT COMES TO FOOTING BILLS ON ANYTHING”
Here is my argument!
1. Its a date. He does not belong to her and no does she ..
2. Its a date, therefore little emotional link ..so two strangers who should look after themselves. Man or Woman we are all equal and capable of the above.
3. So on these terms which are the facts both should pay. However, Darren is said to have paid the full bill even though she offered to go dutch.
4. This does not mean that he cannot ask for some of the bill to be refunded by her.
Why?
a) Consider this, you (Darren) meet a stranger (Joanne) in a store buy clothes for them that happen to be in the same basket (but not your) ..would you let them keep them?
b) (I am not star jones) Talks of Lulu land and that if she gives oral sex she wants a house in UES … YOU COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT.
In that case you are already intimate!!
GET THIS LADIES NOTHING IS FOR FREE.
TRYING VISITING A HOOKER FOR FREE …
DATING & BUYING WOMEN DRINKS IS JUST PAYING FOR THE RIGHT TO HAVE SEX WITH HER …
CIVILISED KERB CRAWLING.
Dont fool yourself by thinking that its not ..BECAUSE MEN ARE ALL ABOUT GETTING THE WOMAN TO HAVE SEX ..SO MAKING HER FEEL GOOD BY TREATING HER IS THE PAYMENT YOU HAVE TO MAKE.
DARREN DID NOT GET PAID HIS PART …SO HE WANTS OUT!!
DARREN ..”I SALUTE YOU”
December 23rd, 2006 at 1:39 pm
This is where you once again don’t get it. Joanne DID volunteer to pay half and Darren refused, saying he would pay for the bill. This is like buying someone a birthday gift and expecting them to pay for it.
December 27th, 2006 at 11:40 am
hasn’t this story been circulating for the past three years or so? Not sure how much truth there is to it anymore, but at least the story has been told consistently the same way. Either way, thanks for the good laugh.
January 3rd, 2007 at 10:01 am
I wonder why he hasn’t tried suing Jdate.com for 50 bucks
January 3rd, 2007 at 3:58 pm
One of the Funniest Things Recently On the Net
Over at PR.Differently is a little story of a Date gone horribly bad between two New York Jewish Singles.
The date ended bad but the Fallout of the date and ensuing emails, voice mails and webmaster commentary is hilarious
check it out:
http://prdiffer...
January 3rd, 2007 at 4:04 pm
This is the Funniest thing I have seen in ages. The Wave Files, Emails and Websmaster coments are fantastic. Great PR Guys and Hilarious!!!
January 18th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
u have to read between the lines and see that this is just an elaborate ad for “CHINA GRILL”…it is just so subtle how there is mention of the resturant. not only that, the number was not omitted in the recording.
January 24th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Yes, Darren Sherman would definitely be in (primatologists) Craig Palmer and Randy Thornhill’s camp — based on these three men’s views, women have been returned to the dark ages when women were the receptacles and vessels for the use of men with no sovereign right to bodily, financial, or psychological integrity. Refusal to comply results in penalty — or in Darren’s case a threat of the loss of Joanne’s livelihood by calling the woman’s employer. It’s nasty, angry, and immature. Some call it biological. I call it evil.
January 25th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
this neeeeeeds to be made into a movie.. OMFG
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:29 pm
This guy is a total ass. I’ve gone on several dates thru dating sites and fixed up by friends. Some have led to second dates and more. I always offer to pay. Some women accept and some insist on paying their share. Some I call back, some I don’t. Some refuse a second date when I call back and some go out again. Its not ever about the money. If I didn’t want to pay the whole bill I wouldn’t offer or refuse if my date wanted to split it. Sounds like Darren needs to get a life and move on.
February 5th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
You have to wonder if it isn’t jsut an elaborate ad for China Grill. I mean could anybody really be this inept socially. On the other hand could anyone really just dream this up. Fact usually is stranger than fiction.
March 6th, 2007 at 10:13 am
Omigod…this story illustrates why I prefer a modest repast, if any, on a first date. As a woman, the truth is that I prefer a man who picks up the first tab. It’s just plain depressing to split a tab with a man you might be romantically interested in. But I also believe in reciprocity. I love to treat a man to a nice meal, often home-cooked. Since I’ve learned that you don’t know if there’s going to be a second date until the second date, and therefore may not have the opportunity to reciprocate, keep the first date modest in scope and expense. I don’t care how high-rolling the guy is. Having said that, this guy sounds like a first-rate wack job!
I’ve found that a disproportionate number of JDate guys are a bit, shall we say, unpredictable in their behavior toward women. Maybe too much Jewish mothering!?
March 19th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
So, this guy asks me out to dinner on a 1st date, and then at the of the dinner, before the bill comes, he suggests that we go over to my place to cuddle !!- When I said absolutely not, he got upset and he asked the waiter to split the bill down the middle. You think I accepted ? hell no ! I thought he needed a major lesson. I took my purse and headed toward the door. The jerk followed me and blocked me from getting out making a big scene. Oh well..this time I though the idiot needs a bigger lesson. So, I kicked him in the leg so hard in you-know-where, he fell down in pain. I couldnt stop laughing at the poor thing. He later on asked the restaurant to call me on my cel (he gave them my number), which they did asking for payment for the portion of my meal. foooooools !!! guys, stop expecting sex after dinner, or you could get screweeeeed !
March 26th, 2007 at 6:45 am
I dont think i’ve ever come across such a hilarious yet contraversial blog post! Has kept me entertained for about the last half hour, thanks
April 1st, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Oh Lord. Some woman wrote a nice inspirational story about how she met her husband on J-Date. I conveniently forgot my past (unpleasant, but not this creepy) experiences trying to date on there, and was considering (!) signing up again.
Thank you SO MUCH for reminding me why NOT to even attempt to J-Date, before it was too late.
May 9th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
These comments have been invaluable to me as is this whole site. I thank you for your comment.
July 2nd, 2007 at 12:58 am
Hmm. There are some solutions to drink buying and dinner buying issues. Don’t go to an expensive dinner on a first date, especially if you are meeting for the first time. I recommend coffee or lunch in a casual atmosphere that creates comfort. Don’t buy a drink for a woman until after you’ve talked to her. Then you won’t feel slighted since conversation is already going, and you are buying the drink for her because you are enjoying yourself.
In other words, don’t buy dinner or drink for a woman because you are trying to convince her to do something, buy it as a gift after thoroughly enjoying your time with her. This subtle shift in mentality may just help her want to go out with you again anyway. You are under no obligation to be a gentleman, but if you both had a good time, she will appreciate it.
Wow, I’m a guy, but abachu above is a nut. You should not have to buy drinks or dinner to get sex. A woman will decide to have sex when she is attracted to the way you make her feel. Money has nothing to do with it. Money is the object you use to ensure that you have a great time for youself with the woman you are attracted to.
July 19th, 2007 at 12:20 am
This guy really reinforces the stereotype, and ruins it for the rest of the Jewish community…. what a tightass cheapskate!!
July 19th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
That guy is such a creep! Barely believable!
July 19th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
OK, we really need to get a couple of guys together and send Darren Sherman a consolation visit from the Jewish Mafia.
But you see, judge, Moyshe, Yaakov and Eli couldn’t have been teaching the unfortunately deceased Mr. Sherman (zichrono l’vrachah) a lesson about not reinforcing ethnic stereotypes at 7:53 PM of the 13th of August, 2007, because they were davening! I was in the very same minyan, after all!
July 19th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Daaaaaaaaaaaaamn lol. This guy had what was coming to him. Seriously, this poor chick did what she could to salvage a horrible experience. Darren = psycho. lol
July 19th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
I can’t believe that all the negative comments are about the guy. Sure, the guy is a sleaze, but the woman is clearly a cheap ass bitch as well. Face it: the guy paid $50 for your dinner. He now wants it back. You claim you “offered” to pay (seriously girls: don’t offer to go dutch. Insist.). Stop making all women look bad, and just pay the guy. Use paypal so he doesn’t know your details if you like. Stop being a cheap bitch.
July 20th, 2007 at 1:00 am
It’s a sad commentary that despite their demanding equal rights and equal pay, 90% of women still expect to “marry up–” and this probably goes for 100% of Jewish women, proving them to be geld-digging slime-whores. This guy was obviously just fed up with this happening too many times, where she just offers to pay half (and ONLY half)as either a TEST to see if he’ll spend money on her or not; if he pays the whole tab then she might dump him or not, but if he doesn’t pay the whole tab then she’ll DEFINITELY dump him. As for “the person who asks the other out should pay,” this is the lamest cop-out since women almost NEVER are the man to ask them out, so the man has to take the initiative for that, and the risk of rejection, and PAY for it as reward; if anything, the one who GETS asked out should pay!
Women play so many damn mind-games that honest men get screwed– but that’s the only way they get screwed. I know because I used to be that way, but now I say all’s fair in love and war, and I do whatever it takes to get whatever I can from women, and give as little in return including putting out cigarettes on your passed-out drunken bodies.
Congratulations ladies, you’ve earned it.
July 20th, 2007 at 11:27 am
i must addmit that this guy is a A-hole. but i have to take to task with the Lady in this story. if she offered to pay then it should stand… i mean come on…she could have paid her part and never have seen the guy again. i mean 50.00 to get rid of this guy is cheap! also i need to say that if he had asked her to pay all of it on the night of the dinner when she offered to go dutch what would ppl think of him??? so at the end of the day its disgusting that this lady would act like men arn’t forced to do what they do and its ignorate of her to think any one is going to take you to a free dinner just for poo and giggles!!!!
July 26th, 2007 at 1:44 am
Wow the following by “Alison” a supposed woman is scary. Calling Joanne a “cheap ass bitch”? Way out of line. “Alison” continues, “Seriously girls dont offer, insist”??? What? Beat him over the head to accept your money? You sure you are not really a male with the same issues as our hero Darren?
Here is the quote: “Alison” sez: “Sure, the guy is a sleaze, but the woman is clearly a cheap ass bitch as well. Face it: the guy paid $50 for your dinner. He now wants it back. You claim you “offered” to pay (seriously girls: don’t offer to go dutch. Insist.). Stop making all women look bad, and just pay the guy. Use paypal so he doesn’t know your details if you like. Stop being a cheap bitch.”
What? HOW IS OFFERING TO PAY and the guy saying no being a “cheap ass”? Mind-reading is not what we are supposed to do ever. People are supposed to say what they need and want - its difficult - but if you don’t you don’t always get what you want!!!! And, then to come back and be obsessive and cheap trying to get the money when you didn’t accept the offer, that’s your problem. Now, sometimes we don’t think on our feet, you could then call and DISCUSS it and see if they consider it fair (since she originally offered) and see what she says and it could be an opportunity to ask her out again (maybe she was waiting for him to call her!), but don’t act like a crazy rude bill collector. I also think she was exceptionally polite to him in her followups. She literally may not have wanted to date again, but her emails also might have been to stay safe and to minimize the damage directed at her from a potentially unstable person. He is obviously angry and maybe even dangerous… REJECTION IS A BITCH… BUT SHE ISN’T!
July 31st, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Gevalt!
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:37 am
This story was unbelievable … as a “nice Jewish man” please keep in mind this moron Darren doesn’t represent any of us…he is a freak!!
I’d love to take Joanne out to her favorite restaurant, my treat, of course, and never any strings attached!! There are still those of us out there that are mensches, and we know how to treat a lady. Darren is just one sick puppy, and one can only feel sorry for him. Good luck to everyone out there in their search for love and happiness.
September 8th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
i’m sorry, guys. if you want to buy affection, you’re better off getting a prostitute. you’re almost garanteed to get your $ worth.
if you buy me a drink, dinner, flowers, a movie ticket, a flight to hawaii, whatevertheheckyouthinkwillwinmylittlefuzzyheart out of your own volition, don’t expect me to put out just because i accept. i promise not to sue you for whatever money i spent in lingerie, new clothes, manicure, pedicure, perfume, and/or to get my hair done if you don’t call me again.
darren and darren-likes, really. you don’t need a date you need a straight jacket.
September 30th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
All the more reason to NOT Give Out Any Personal Information until You Have Gotten to Know the Person.
Never give your real name, address or phone number until you are sure the person you are talking to is who they say they are. Perverts, sexual predators and just plain garden variety weirdoes come in both sexes, all ages and in all shapes and sizes.
Itâs truly better to be safe than sorry.
More tips regarding risks of dating online here: http://www.online-dating-101.c.....ngrisk.htm
October 14th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
I love that he told her “dont be cheap” on one of the voicemails. Unreal!
November 9th, 2007 at 10:07 am
And I thought my JDate experience was bad…ROFL
December 15th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
I don’t know what’s worse for our image as Jews, this schmuck Darren or the murder of Rachel Corey in Gaza by a Bulldozer. I’m goin with Darren. Feh, who needs this!! As if the Jews haven’t suffered enough now we have him. OY!!!!!!
December 19th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Well this is disturbing behavior. I am surprised at the girl too. If someone was bothering me so much for half of price of a meal, I would just give them 50 dollars and be done with it. You don’t want to escalate things with a crazy person.
That is my opinion.
June 29th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
[...] remember the story about Darren S, [...]
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:37 am
Alison, you’re either Darren under an alias or just crazy. She is in no way cheap and her responses to his threats were the farthest thing from bitchy. I think she was far too polite. Damn feminists have killed dating for men and women alike. Men, you should pay. Women, never pick anything expensive and if possible ask for a date where no money is involved. And when it comes to drinks in a bar, if a guy really wants his moneys worth he should talk to her before buying her something. Nothing is guarenteed in her accepting a drink. Chauvinists need to be taught a lesson in chivalry.
August 17th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
The guy seems to behave in an manner that lacks logic and reason, not dissimilar to those who suffer from certain mental illnesses.
January 12th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
I didn’t bother to read all of the comments, but as a single guy, all I can say is wow.
A few things… It is painfully obvious that Joanne did absolutely nothing wrong. She just didn’t call back after a first date. That happens, it just means you didn’t click. Move on. Happens all the time, plenty of fish in the sea.
Kudos to her for offering to pay for her portion of the first date. Kudos to him for picking it up initially. WTF?!?!? to him for all of the subsequent behavior. Seriously, dude needs a therapist and medication. Lots of medication. Start with a high end anti-anxiety for the rumination and work from there.
Finally, to my fellow single and especially single again guys out there… If you are interesting to talk to, you will never have to buy the first drink. Yes, I am serious, I don’t remember the last time I did… And I’m not that good looking, late 30’s, divorced with a kid and yet I have a very active and fun dating life when single and I am currently a relationship with a wonderful woman who is quite a bit younger than I… Learn to be funny, interesting, and most importantly, confident in yourself and who you are (not arrogant, there’s a difference). The best conversations are the ones where no one feels obliged to be there because you bought them a drink or dinner or anything else… And those are the conversations that people want to continue again and again. And let’s face it, that’s where relationships begin, right?
May 31st, 2009 at 11:30 am
I think you all are being a little hard on Darren, for a sociopath he’s very social. I think we should all be glad jdate has gotten his dollars, now that they’ve gotten his dollars where is the form to kick him out of the tribe? I think we can get it on clause 19 (inability to get tush) as well as clause 26 (inability to see himself in every other asshole in the world)
Joanne, where ever you are, you acted perfectly!
June 1st, 2009 at 4:56 pm
I just recently started a blog all about these sorts of JDate tales! Its still in the beginning stages but seriously this is EXACTLY WHY I started it. What is wrong with people?! Thanks Shanks!